I started the process of rebuilding the water pump that came off my 26 tudor and to my surprise, there is nothing listed or showing in the catalogs to get any parts for. As is showing on the casting, it is an atlas foundry pump but appears to maybe be off a later year. Can someone help me with this pump? thanks for your help. Rand
I may catch flak for saying this, but why not just leave it off?
Does it not need a pump?
They work just fine without a water pump. Better actually, because now you don't have grease and rusty water being slung All over the engine compartment.
Rand, Model Ts did not have a water pump when new. They are all accessories. Even the water pumps on the 26-27 models were accessories or dealer installed options. If you have a good radiator, you do not need a pump. They are usually a "band aid" that is trying to fix some other cooling problem. The model T uses a "thermo-syphon system to cool. It is the natural flow of heated water wanting to rise (up to the radiator tank) and be cooled by the radiator and fall to the bottom of the radiator and then back to the engine in the side radiator hose and inlet. Your Atlas pump is one of hundreds of different makes of aftermarket water pumps made. There are no replacement parts being made for them.... Hope this helps.... Have fun and be safe Donnie Brown.... by the way be prepared for some possible very heated discussion about water pumps. They are one of the very controversial subjects on model Ts with very opinionated folks on both sides of the argument ...
The next time your on a tour run to the front of a car with a good radiator and you should be able to put your hand on the bottom of the radiator 120 degs. more or less
Water pumps for T's were an accessory thats not really needed.
A 'T' that has a good radiator, running good and in overall good mechanical condition doesn't need one.
If your T has the original radiator or if it has been replaced with another older radiator eventually it will cause a cooling problem no matter if you have a water pump on it or not.
Some people like them and some don't but from my own experience trying to use old radiators and water pumps are a waste of time.
At the very least having a new core in a radiator makes a world of difference. It did for me anyway.
Thanks for your comments. I will just take it off I guess and it sounds like I will need a new radiator or at least have to work on the old one.
OK, here we go again
If overheating becomes a problem, I can think of three likely reasons.
1 Dirt/rust/crud in the cooling system;
2 Worn out radiator;
3 Running too lean with timing too retarded.
1 Clean it;
2 Recore or replace;
3 Adjust driving style.
More info: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG96.html
I have one left and it is coming off my 27 roadsters when I take the vaporizer off and put a NH on her. Tim
Yes, water pumps are a very controversial subject with model T folk. However, they are also a part of their mystic and history. Whether they needed one or not, millions of model T owners bought a water pump for their T back in the days when most should have known better. Actually, maybe most people DID know better. Most model Ts never did get one.
The pump that you show is a rather unusual style, and moderately rare. You probably would be better off to leave it out of your car. But that pump should be kept and preserved for its unusual characteristics. Simply as a wall-hanger curiosity.
Just to be clear, rare does not always mean valuable. If you found the right person that NEEDED your pump, it could be worth maybe $50 to even $100. Generally speaking, most pumps sell for about $10, if you can find a buyer at even that.
The reason your pump may be worth a bit more, does have to do with its rarity. Because of the way (where and how) the pump mounts, it does not block certain areas on the side of the motor that most common pumps do tend to block. Some model T people like to run rare and desirable accessories on their cars (especially the speedster crowd). Some of those accessories (like OHV carburetors, early starter/generator units, and some side-drive magnetos) need that same space that most common water pumps use. Sometimes, those people want to run a water pump (whether it is needed or not), and need one of the odd ones that mount differently like yours does.
And, to play the devil's advocate, I will say (without going into a lot of details or reasons why) that SOMETIMES, a water pump does help.
Welcome to the affliction! I hope you have fun restoring your T! And I hope that water pump finds a good home, either on your car, or off.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Rand, At first you may just want to check your radiator good, and give it a good cleaning if needed, then check for crud and rust in the water jackets and clean it the best you can. The water pump on your car does not mean it was needed. It just may mean that the previous owner wanted a water pump. And as Steve said above the driving style is a big factor in a car overheating. Have fun ....
So THAT's why Boyco WATER cans and various canvas WATER bags were sold by the thousands (millions?).......because T's never over heated and puked out water.
If a water pump has prevented your T from over heating buy another one or fix the one you have.
Have fun with the $900+ you saved.
Rand, a possible worthwhile investment (if you don't already have one) could be a motometer! It'll give you a chance to remove the water pump and monitor for overheating. It would provide a little bit of comfort to know if it'll overheat and tell you whether you actually need to do any more with your cooling system. Perhaps your radiator is fine and your water pump was simply added to satisfy a nervous past owner.
In our time we usually drive on good roads and not through mud or deep sand.Therefore we can say model T's never needed a water pump 100 years later?? Bud.
Rand: All is not lost. It would make a good wheel chock.
You guys make me laugh...I sure enjoy the forum and your comments are all good for my learning this hobby. I'm just bolting everything back up now and getting ready to set the body back on the frame. This has been a super fun hobby so far. I just hope it runs when I'm ready to fire it up. Thanks for your help everyone. Rand
From Murray Fahnestock July 1922. Atlas Pump
"The Atlas pump is of the true centrifugal type, as used on large cars of other than Ford makes, thus securing ample flow of water at even slow engine speeds. This pump is supported by a plate steel bracket, which is clamped between the flange of the cylinder head and the cylinder water out outlet hose connection.
The body of the pump is of gray iron castings, while the impeller is of bronze, and the packing nut of yellow brass. the impeller is securely keyed to the steel shaft with a woodruff key and dowel pin. the steel shaft runs in bronze bearings
A set-screw, to take up end play is provided for convenient adjustment. While a drain plug is provided at the bottom of the pump. In case it is desired to drain the cooling system in the winter. The drive is of the triangular type, with flat belt passing over both pump and fab pulleys."
Fahnestock states else where in his discussion in the Ford Owner of the period -- "Some Ford owners, since fitting water circulating pumps, have found since fitting water circulating pumps, have found that the cooling system only requires the addition of water every week or so; instead of once a day or oftener, as is quite regular Ford performance in hot weather."
The selling point in the period ads for the Atlas posted above is that the Ford won't freeze in winter. That's a problem they had back then without glycol that the water may not have frozen during the night, but as soon you started driving the water in the radiator risked freezing due to the extra cooling effect from the wind before the engine got warm and the water started to circulate. The pump was supposed to start the circulation earlier - don't know if it had any actual effect on freezing. But that's what they claimed.
50/50 antifreeze, no pump, no fan and no parades works great for my Ford, your mileage may vary
Okay,....a couple of comments in regard to the Atlas water pump, the "Ford Dealer and Service Field" ad, and Murray Fahnestock:
First, this is just my "opinion" which is just that, an opinion. But notice that the "ad" is meant for those that are SELLING stuff (including water pumps) to Ford owners, and is basically touting the "$ale$ opportunitie$" much more than the actual benefit (if any) of the water pump!
Also, not that I am any expert or anything, but since my first Ford, a '28 Model A while in high school about 60 years ago, I have extensively read much of what Murray Fahnestock has written about Model T's and Model A's, and I believe that he is (was) one of the most knowledgable Ford authorities that ever lived! And as such, I really question whether the supposed quote by Murray Fahnestock in that ad are really his words or not, and if they are, if maybe Murray stood to "gain" somehow or other from the sale of Atlas water pumps. I'd rather believe that Murray was certainly smart enough to agree with most of us less knowledgable that at very best, any water pump was just a "band aid" for a Ford with a poor radiator or some other problem that was causing overheating. FWIW,.....harold