OT, Early Dodge Bros ring & pinion changes

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: OT, Early Dodge Bros ring & pinion changes
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, April 23, 2016 - 12:19 am:

I've posted this question on the DB forum and the HCCA forum, but so far not one response, so trying here!
I have a May '16 DB touring car. The rear axle has straight-cut ring & pinion in it, unfortunately it has broken teeth. I have a second early rear axle, externally looks identical to the one under the car. Took the cover off it and found beautiful gears, but they are spiral cut! Does anyone know when the change occurred? Haven't had a chance to count the teeth to see if they're the same. I know later axles were lower-geared.
Thanks for any help y'all might have!
I am amazed at the differences between my '16 T and the '165 DB. Think the DB has enough metal in it to make two or even three Ts--but, almost NO wood!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, April 23, 2016 - 03:36 am:

Well, I saw your question on the HCCA site, but I don't know enough about Dodge cars to have a really good answer for you. I don't know when they would have changed the gear type. However, I would think that most people would just use the better rear end as long as it looks the same. If you can't tell it apart from the outside? I guess why not. There is something to be said for trying to keep our antiques as correct as we reasonably can however. Guess I can't help you much here either.
I do find the question interesting. There have been discussions here in the past about some spiral cut gears for model Ts. Seems there may be some evidence that Ford may have offered such gears for about a year around 1921. Also, some Chevrolet gears from that era can fit into a model T rear end and were spiral cut. Some after-market replacement for Ts gears were offered in different ratios also spiral cut. One could wonder if such options may have been available for Dodge in those years?
Many years ago, I knew several people that were really into four cylinder Dodge Brothers cars. I remember them complaining about the cars of the early through mid-'20s being low geared, and making them a bit difficult to tour with. In those days ('60s and '70s) there was quite a rivalry between the Dodge and Ford folks.

I sometimes wonder how well the Dodge Brothers cars do for touring today. Gasoline was much better in many ways in those days. Most model Ts could be pushed to over 50 mph (my center-door sedan was clocked at 55 mph a few times). The Dodges had plenty of power, but were limited to about 45 mph because of the gearing. They probably still have enough power, the gearing still keeps them at 45 mph, and the model Ts lost their higher speed to the 25 percent power loss in gasoline. Most model T people today are satisfied to be limited to about 45 mph anyway. The Dodge owners are probably doing just fine and keeping up like never before!
I do hope once I get my spring '15 runabout onto tours, that I won't be too disappointed with it. The coupe has a few additions, the speedsters have all been what they are, and the runabout will be the most stock model T I have had since I sold the center-door about twenty years ago.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Saturday, April 23, 2016 - 04:56 am:

1915/16 bevel gears 3.61:1
1917 Dodge used spiral bevel gears 3.50:1
1918 4.17:1


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gene french on Saturday, April 23, 2016 - 11:28 am:

David:
on my 1917 Dodge Brothers touring i found broken gear teeth on both the ring and pinion gears ...i was able to weld the broken sections to build up material for re-machining ( grinding) ...i tig welded using Brutis tig filler rod from Rockmont welding supply ...this is used in many tool repairs since it is compatible with a variety of tool steels ( i was uncertain of gear material type)( welded sections were 54 Rockwell C hardness)...this is possibly only a short term repair ...only 28 years and approx 60,000 miles so far ...this could ( or not) fail at anytime ...atleast DB had real rear brakes ...always an optimist ..gene french


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George John Drobnock on Saturday, April 23, 2016 - 11:48 am:

Wow! What a civilized group. No outrage that this site is answering a question about a Dodge?

Dave, did you consider having the broken teeth repaired?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, April 23, 2016 - 12:40 pm:

Hi fellas - I found the initials "DMC" stamped on the base of the ragtop iron rigging of my 1914 Model T. I assume that stands for Dodge Motor Company. Were they the only top vendor of the day?

I had no idea they were so involved with Ford early on. Henry Ford has always been my favorite anti-Semitic Fascist because in 1914, he doubled the minimum wage to $5 a day and reduced the work shift to 8 hours. Maybe he understood that when the working class has some disposable income, they'd spend it and the economy flourishes. Or maybe it was all about expanding his consumer base. Ford sold cars in record numbers with little or no labor turnover thereby reducing training costs. Everybody won. Nevertheless, it sounds like the Dodge boys were great employers.


quote:

John and Horace Dodge were in sharp contrast to Henry Ford when it came to employee care; they did not invade their houses or dictate religious practice, but did have a fully staffed medical clinic, a department to look after workers’ social needs, and, perhaps most significantly (and a fore-runner of Silicon Valley and 3M), a machine shop called “the Playpen” where men could fix or invent things after hours. Employees were served huge platters of sandwiches and pitchers of beer at lunch hours, paid for by the company. In the heat of summer, beer was served in the afternoons in the foundry and forge.




http://www.allpar.com/corporate/bios/dodge-brothers.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, April 23, 2016 - 02:02 pm:

Many thanks for the responses. As to fixing the gears, Hmm, I have this rear axle with perfect gears "in hand" and a pocket book that is "out of hand" so I will probably just use the "new" rear end. I hope this doesn't remind someone of Mae West. . .
So thank you Frank, that confirms that the rear end ratio will be slightly different with the spiral gears.
Gene, Gee, a temporary repair that only has lasted 28 years and 60K miles??? What a waste of money! :-) As for the rear brakes, I've only driven one so far, and the brakes weren't any better than the Ford ones!! Might have been the car I was driving. . .
George, see above! :-)
Jesse, Sorry to tell you, but H. Ford was just trying to keep production going, employee turnover was killing him; the ability for his workers to afford the car was just a side-benefit and good publicity. Hmm, free beers--no wonder there are so many variances in DB production! :-)

Many thanks to all for the information and suggestions!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Saturday, April 23, 2016 - 11:59 pm:

George,

Civilized yes, but then, John and Horace Dodge were critically important to the success of Ford Motor Company. They were two of the founding partners in 1903 when FoMoCo incorporated. They agreed to provide mechanical parts on credit to get their 10 percent of the company. Made a lot of money selling parts and, eventually, getting a large dividend.

Come to the birthplace of the Model T, the Piquette Avenue Plant, and learn more about them and also James Couzens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, April 24, 2016 - 04:42 am:

Gene French, interesting that you mentioned Rockmount Brutus Tig welding rod. I have used a lot of that rod in a past life, but it was for stick welding, never did get into Tig welding. They had a lot of very good specialty welding rod products, as did several other companies back in the late'60's through the late '80's and maybe later. I was told that all of those specialty welding supply companies that started back in that time frame were offshutes from technologies developed during the NASA space programs. I don't know how many have survived, but a lot didn't. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, April 24, 2016 - 01:50 pm:

We all know how great this forum is, but this question really brought out the best of the group--so far I have not had ONE response on both the Dodge Brothers forum and the HCCA forum from this same question I posted there days before I posted it here.
We ROCK!!!
:-)
And again, many thanks for the answers!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, April 24, 2016 - 09:36 pm:

David, I picked up a couple early DB rear ends at an auction last month so I can probably help you out. I need to look at my parts books to see what will work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 01:12 am:

Erik,
GReat!! BTW, I still have your muffler pipe here!
:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:54 pm:

Jesse......I doubt that DMC stands for Dodge Motor Company.
Everything the brothers did was Dodge Brothers.
I read they wouldn't even open mail that was addressed to one or the other.
If it wasn't to Dodge BROTHERS it got trashed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 11:31 pm:

Yeah, we can probably rule out DeLorean.

As close as I can find on the internet for 1914 is "Dodge Brothers Motor Car Company" - a reasonable facsimile. Interesting though; a Dodge top on a Beaudette body on a Ford chassis. Just like a government project.


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