Head off Look about right? Newbie

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Head off Look about right? Newbie
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gida Wilkinson on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 05:19 am:

Hi all

I am new to model Ts and have inherited a 24, one of the issues with the engine was, it was running ok, pulled well and then it started spitting/steaming water out the side of the headgasket, so have removed for investigation.

As you can see where blowing top left of picture and loads of 'crud' inside to clean and flush out probably not helping.

My simple question is do the colour of the valves all look reasonable/seem ok, not a lot of carbon build up, I read about aluminium pistons instead of cast how do I tell? what I have its a bit of an unknown in that respect.

Also when I have cleaned etc should I add a sealant to my new copper gasket?

Final question for a nwbie, what would be the best method of removing the crud from the inside of the waterways, a few flushes or is there a cleaner I could use, would help?

block


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rolf Oehman on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 07:50 am:

Use a magnet to determine if it`s aluminium pistons or not.
I have used copper spray on the head gasket. Works great.
The valves look normal to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:14 am:

Valve color looks OK. You expect the exhaust valves to get hotter than the intake valves and for that reason to have a lighter color. I'd run a wire into the steam holes of the block and head. Also use a straight edge on the head and block to make sure they are true. Before you put the head back on, clean out where the head bolts go so they won't bottom out when you install the head. When you put the head back on, use the copper coat and torque to 45 to 50lb-ft. Once assembled, you can use an engine flushing material available at a parts house. Don't forget to re-torque the head after running.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard E Moore Jr. Pickwick lake Tenn. on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:18 am:

Looks like the front exhaust valve is shot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:33 am:

The front and rear cylinders tend to run a bit cooler in any inline engine, and so the exhaust valve runs a bit cooler on those cylinders. Thus the carbon on the valve is a darker color, not the tan that we get on the inner two.

Looks absolutely normal to me. I would scrape all the carbon, then scotch brite with some MEK, then install the head gasket. Be sure all surfaces are clean and dry. The head gasket needs sealant on both sides. I use silver Krylon dull aluminum lacquer as a sealant, but KW Copper Coat works well too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:38 am:

Once you get it all clean it might be good to check both the head and the block with a straight edge?? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gida Wilkinson on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:49 am:

Thanks all some good advice.

I have down the magnet test ( no idea why I did not think of that) and as it sticks it must be cast iron. Clean out where the head bolts go good tip 😀

I will check the trueness of the head and block hopefully they will be ok, I'll have a look at the different sealants for the gasket, but will probably go with one of your recommendations.

Thank you


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:52 am:

The water passages can be cleaned with vinegar. Use foil tape to block the inlet. Fill with vinegar overnight. Flush with water the next day. Coat hangars and small wire brushes are handy too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 08:59 am:

Looking at the pic it looks like the front exhaust valve has some small pieces broken off the edges of the valve! Maybe its some carbon or something. Does anyone besides me see that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gida Wilkinson on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 09:39 am:

Hi John it's a slightly deceptive photo, I think the marks you refer to are where a couple of drops of water sprinkled on the engine when I removed the head.

Just double checked and valves are not chipped or heave in carbon😀


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gida Wilkinson on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 11:40 am:

Just gave head a quick brush out and found what's looks like an old nail!! Interesting .... Not heard of nails being used to seal a leak!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 11:55 am:

All the above are good suggestions. I don't think anyone mentioned the correct method to tighten the head which is very important. Your start with the bolt in the center and work from side to side. then do the next bolt either side of the center bolt and work diagonally the side bolts etc until you get to the last two on each end of the block. These bolts should be tightened to about 25 ft lbs each and then when they are all tightened, start at the center again and tighten to 30 ft lbs and again 35 ft lbs then 40 etc until you reach 50 ft lbs all the way around. Next step I like to do is take a hose and put down the water outlet at the top of the head and let it run out the water inlet at the side of the block. This will wash out more carbon and rust or sediment which might have been missed by previous cleaning. Install the hoses and fill with tap water. Check for leaks. Start the engine and run until it reaches normal operating temperature. Stop the engine. If you have a steel head, you can start at the center and work outward as previously described and torque again to 50 ft lbs all around. Then drive the car around for a while. After you get back check torque again. Do this after every time you drive the car until it remains at 50 ft lbs. Then you are through torquing the head.

If the car has an aluminum head. Follow the same instructions until the first time you warm up the engine. With aluminum, let the car cool off completely before you torque again. Follow the same instructions as above except that before you re-torque aluminum let it cool off completely.

After you are sure everything is ok and no leaks, drain the cooling system and fill with half antifreeze (the green stuff) and half water. If you live in a hard water area, use distilled water. Or if you don't want to use anti freeze, buy rust inhibitor. Some people like to use a product called "Water Wetter". They claim it helps the cooling. I have not used it.

Some people also say to torque to 55 ft lbs. This would make it less likely to blow the gasket again, but unless you use new bolts and the threads in the block are very good, you will risk either broken bolts or stripped threads if you tighten more than 50 ft lbs.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 01:15 pm:

It would be wise to check the head and block for straightness prior to installing the new gasket. Look for possible reasons why the original gasket failed. Were the head bolts tight when you removed them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 01:23 pm:

Be sure to clean out the bottoms of the head bolt holes in the block with a pick, then blow out the chips (wear eye protection!) and clean up the threads with a bottoming tap, then blow out the chips again.

Then, set the head on the block without a gasket and make sure that all of the head bolts can clamp the head without bottoming out in their holes.

:-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary London, Camarillo, CA on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 01:47 pm:

Hen you clean the threads run a normal tap all the way don, then use a bottoming tap so you clean all the threads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 01:50 pm:

In addition to checking how true the head is, and if it is true, also check the surface finish. Surface finish is very important for how the gasket "takes" and I've seen it where, when too rough, it has a difficult time making a proper seal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 01:55 pm:

Call me chicken, but I'd go for max 45 ft/lbs, just IMHO! the threads in the block aren't always the best! Any other's ideas?
It does look like you've got some sludge in the bottom of the water jacket. You probably should flush the radiator too, while you've got things apart.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 02:06 pm:

Take a close look at the second valve from the front.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gida Wilkinson on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 02:46 pm:

The gasket has failed over a number of years by the look of it just on the corner, it looks like a very slow failure.

The head using a steel rule seems true as does the block what I had noticed is that the exhaust manifold has no gasket just some 'gum' so it was very very close to the corner of the head which I guess may have contributed over time


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gida Wilkinson on Monday, April 25, 2016 - 02:52 pm:

Pic below of the corner


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gida Wilkinson on Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 03:30 am:

Lots of threads re coolant, just to confirm what spec to avoid this is not a brass car


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 04:46 am:

Brass car or not, the radiator is still brass on the black era cars, just covered in a shroud :-)

About coolant - Norm gave good advice above:
"After you are sure everything is ok and no leaks (with plain water), drain the cooling system and fill with half antifreeze (the green stuff) and half water. If you live in a hard water area, use distilled water."

Here's a thread that shows why you shouldn't let it sit for years with plain water even if it doesn't freeze in your area: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/635957.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 08:43 am:

Here is what my 1918 Dykes manual says:



45 pounds of torque is more than is needed. You honestly don't need a torque wrench. Just use the Ford head bolt wrench and the instructions here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 08:43 am:

Gilda, you might want to check the exhaust manifold for warpage. If they tried to seal it with "some gum", it's possibly an attempt to make a bad manifold seal against the block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 08:45 am:

Gida, I apologize for messing up your name. Autocorrect burned me again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 09:00 am:

Royce

That Dykes illustration is good, as the head bolts on a T need to be 'torqued' in that order, the center bolts first. The gasket is the thinnest between the cylinders in the center.

But....note the head bolt count! Only 14! Ford head has 15 head bolts.

Here is the tightening sequence illustration with proper bolt count :-)



After you clean out and blow out the bolt holes in the block. Then copper coat or spray a heavy metallic containing alum spray paint on both surfaces of the gasket. Then use a touch of anti-seize on the bolts, that will help prevent a busted bolt on removing that head in a year or two to clean carbon.

Torque carefully, won't go over 45 most times, even with new head bolts, even if the block threads are spectacular condition, as most times the block threads are worn from years of removal and replacement.














Washers used, as this is alum head, prevents steel bolts from galling on the alum.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gida Wilkinson on Tuesday, April 26, 2016 - 02:50 pm:

Thanks for al the help, some good pics thank you


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