was the logo on the bonnet of the headlamps stamped or was a logo plaque riveted on originally? i've seen both and don't know what is correct. also, were the headlamps supplied in pair or were they both the same, referring to the door swing. thanks
There was not a left or right E&J headlamp. All opened the same direction. Reproductions come in right and left versions, and people restore them incorrectly as right and left.
Earlier versions had a triangular name plate with the E&JJ Ford logo. The same lamps were used on other makes of car with various other triangular logos.
By the mid summer - fall of 1911 the Ford logo was engraved directly on the bonnet, eliminating the triangular placard.
Here's a link to good photos of a set of the 1911 style lamps:
thank you royce....
sure would like to find a set with the placards to replace mine which apparently are repops.
Some cars also had blank bonnets, referred to as, "E&J no-name lamps." These have been mostly noted on torpedo roadsters, but also were used on tourings as well.
These would have also be used on non-Ford cars as well.
: ^ )
The blank bonnets would be a replacement part or non Ford IMHO. No way Ford would buy headlamps without their logo.
Why not? If the supply of inscribed lamps (or the nameplates) ran low during this period of increased production it seems somewhat logical that the no-name lamps would be supplied to fulfill a contract.
Following your logic, might the same be said with respect to the side and tail lamps as well? Have you ever seen a brass E&J side or tail lamp from this era with a Ford marking?
Incidentally, the lamp pictured above in Keith's post is probably the original to the car. I'd be flabbergasted if those headlights were replacements but anything is possible. They did suffer the indignity of an electric conversion fairly early during the car's heyday.
See: lighting equipment
Using your logic, would Flanders not install Ford marked model 666 headlamps if E&J ran out of the plain ones? How about Buick?
I am sorry, that would not happen. Ford had more than one lamp supplier at all times. If E&J lamps were not in stock then Brown lamps would be used. I don't believe Ford would accept anything that did not meet specs.
Nobody suggested Ford was installing lamps marked with the trademark of a competing manufacturer. Installing a lamp with no mark at all is a completely different logic.
How would that be possible if Ford only ordered headlamps with the Ford script? There would not be any non- Ford lamps to install.
Our Canadian 12 head lamps do not have ford on them , the plate is riveted and has E+J on it. There is a 1912 Flanders here in Manitoba and it uses the same E+J lamps all around as our 1912 Ford.
Set's of five? Do the other lamps cowl&tail have the Ford script? Just another dumb question from Bud.
Our lamp restorer here in South Australia loves to get hold of E&J sidelights because they were used on quite a few different makes of cars, and thus his market for restored lamps is wider. The lack of Ford logo allows this.
He also has beautiful reproduction triangular badges for the E&J headlights for the 1911 Ford cars. They can be fitted to no-name lamp chimneys and also to the later model 66 lights to allow their use as earlier 666 lights.
Royce, I am in awe of your confidence in Henry's supply chain that there could never be a glitch in supply of any outside procured parts.
Allan from down under.
Very simple Royce -- as per the scenario given above by Phil.
Did E&J produce any plain headlamps?
Yes, E&J did produce plain headlamps for makers such as Brush, Flanders etc. They would have shipped headlamps like that to fill orders for plain headlamps to those car makers.
Ford ordered no headlamps without Ford script - so none would have been delivered at Ford Walter.
So Royce, I guess that opinion of yours a few posts back wasn't so much humble as it was absolute? I asked about non-script lamps because your response prior to this one would seem to indicate that if Ford wasn't ordering plain lamps, there would be none to be had at all.
Manufacturers wind up with excess inventory laying around for various reasons and buyers frequently overwhelm manufacturers with unreasonable demands and then accept compromises in favor of shutting down the line. I've worked in manufacturing and the above scenarios contrary to yours are rather plausible, so we'll agree to disagree, or at least I will. Given your nature you probably will not agree to disagree.
Somebody pay $35 and get a researcher at the Benson Ford Archives to dig up the 1909-1911 lamp specs to suppliers..
My opinion is that Ford, being the very biggest customer that E&J (and Brown, Corcoran, Victor) had, would get the best possible service from that vendor. There would likely be shortages at Flanders, Buick, Reo, Metz and any number of other makes that used E%J lamps rather than short a Ford order or try to send non - conforming parts to Ford by mistake.
My opinion, and like George says, it is an opinion until proven fact by the prints on hand at the Benson Ford reveal if it is fact.
I notice in your profile you have a 1911 runabout - tell us about which lamps you are using? What does the build sheet for your car say?
If using non-script lamps was to get by in a pinch, it won't likely show up on prints. You've got guys above that own significant unrestored cars with examples of this. Yes, lamps aren't hard to switch out, but I can't see the logic in so fervently disregarding outright the possibility so as to discourage research. Era photos of new cars would be a good indicator if there are any.
Yes, I'm assembling an early 1911 Open Runabout from loose parts and therefore don't have a build sheet. My preference is Jno. Brown, so it's 15's, 60's, and a 75.