High Cowl Hood With A Low Cowl Radiator

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: High Cowl Hood With A Low Cowl Radiator
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 03:53 pm:

Has anyone actually used a low cowl radiator on a high cowl car?. I have a 23 touring and there is evidence that the shorter radiator was used for a long period of time but the hood was in the back seat, so I'm not sure if it was ever on the car with that radiator. It is definitely a high cowl hood as is the car. Other than raising the radiator an inch or so it looks like everything would line up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 03:57 pm:

Here's a picture before I took it apart.23 radiator


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 05:23 pm:

Point of clarification:

There is a a lot of unnecessary confusion regarding the 1923 model year.

You should be aware that 1923 Fords have low radiators, low hoods and low cowls.

If your car has a high cowl, then it is 1924 or 1925 Ford.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Boe on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 05:36 pm:

As I recall the famous "Opera Car" had a low radiator in a high shell with a high hood. It fit but looked funny. The neck was level with the opening in the shell and there was about an inch of radiator tank showing through the top of the front shell opening. Speaking of this famous "Bordello on Wheels" as it was called. Has anyone seen it lately? I know that it was first seen at a dealer in Florida, it then went to a DEA sale.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 05:42 pm:

I have been running a low radiator in my 24 for the last 8 years, aftermarket honeycomb that was in the car when I bought it. It ran so cool I've never change it, just soldered on another neck to get the cap above the shell. No one has ever noticed it unless I pointed it out. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 05:43 pm:

Well shoot, picture doesn't show it. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 06:03 pm:

Keith, do you have a side view that you can post?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 06:16 pm:

Lets try this. On the left the tudor. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 06:51 pm:

Interesting, still not really noticeable! Is the gap between the hood sides and hood shelves even, or is it a smaller gap in the front?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 07:17 pm:

Pretty good fit but as I say old after market. Biggest thing was to solder another neck on top of the other to get the cap high enough. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 07:29 pm:

I see what you are asking, hood gap is good as it is a high shell, another thing I did do was to cut a cedar block to fit over the top of the radiator neck and between shell for better shell support and also soldered some nut brackets to the side panels to fasten the shell to the radiator. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 07:34 pm:

Ah, now I understand, you have a low radiator behind a high shell, no wonder the hood fits well.

Thanks for the clarification! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 07:43 pm:

I have the shorter shell that fits the radiator. If the curve is the same I would have to raise radiator and shell to put the hood on. This sounds like a good option at this point in my restoration. I refuse to pay $1,000.00 for what should be a $300.00 radiator. Something will come along down the road for a good tall radiator and shell. I'm anxious to get the engine in and running.
Apr30


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 07:48 pm:

I think Keith has a low radiator with all else being high, and he 'adapted' his neck to fit what he had.

BTW...nice bibs Keith :-)

I'm sitting here and thinking...could be done...

The hood former of a low should fit on a cowl for a high (Kind of look closer to a mid teens fit, but could be made to mate up)...with the low former, the hood rod would be at the right elevation for a low hood...add a low radiator and a low radiator shroud and a low hood? All makes sense. I think the hood shelves possibly would have to change also.

I have a Hack that is a complete '27 Chassis, all 'low' front end gear, and the hood former is just bolted up to the wood slab of a 2010 John Stolz iron era Hack body pre 'improved'. I can see no obvious reason for it to also apply to a '24 cowl assembly.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 07:51 pm:

What's the height difference, about an inch? Would blocks under the radiator and rad shell mounts be good enough to make it all fit?

As a side note, a friend of mine has a T with a wooden pickup cab and fuel tank that has a low rad and high shell. It may even go one step further and have a low hood with deep filler blocks on top of the frame rails, I forget. It's an interesting machine, a bitsa in every sense of the word. I'll have to get some pics of it and start a thread some day.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 08:37 pm:

The radiator is sitting on Springs so a couple wood blocks under the springs and longer mounting studs should do it. They should be easy to make. I don't have the hood shelves yet but with a high hood they should fit without modification.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 09:32 pm:

The wood blocks under the radiator don't work because of the fan clearance, fan hits lower tank when you raise the whole radiator. As it is I had no problems with hoses or anything else, you do have to fiddle with the support rod length though. I always meant to change radiators but this one runs very cool even with out a fan. Still have the hub turning after fan loosened up on a tour a few years ago and I took it on off. To lazy I guess to remove the rest. When people ask I tell em that's the turbo charger hooks up. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Saturday, April 30, 2016 - 09:51 pm:

Thanks
I'll get the engine in before setting the radiator. I can probably find a high shell and modify the radiator neck like you have.

I like your car and your attitude.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 03:53 am:

When I got my '25 coupe, it had a low radiator mated to the high cowl. It was a mess. This was done back in the early '60's by a local farmer. The radiator was raised about 3/4" with rubber biscuits (looked like '55-'57 Chevy front motor mounts), the ORIGINAL high shell was cut and modified to fit, and the ORIGINAL high hood sides were cut and tapered down to fit the cobbled up shell. IMHO, DON"T try to make a low radiator fit a high cowl, it just isn't worth it. Take your time and find the correct parts, they are out there. I found a really nice flat tube high radiator on ebay several years ago for about one third of the price for a new one, and a very nice high shell at a swap meet that was very reasonable. I have the modified high hood that is available if someone wants to do this. As always, YMMV. Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 04:10 am:

I've got a high cowl and a brass radiator. My hood fits perfectly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Stroud on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 04:45 am:

:-) Dave


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 09:11 am:

You probably have a water pump to make the whole thing work. Do you consider yourself a purist?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 12:44 pm:

No need for a water pump, and there are only two blades on the fan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 01:05 pm:

Jeff, I hope the blades are opposite of each other?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 03:26 pm:

I'm not sure what date they changed from low to high radiator. Maybe different dates for different assembly plants? Erik Johnson says 23's have low radiators. I have a 22 with a straight windshield and low radiator, but there are several 22's in our local club with slant windshield and high radiator.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 03:34 pm:

Model year, model year, model year…….

For the moment, just forget the calendar and "different dates."

It's not complicated:

1922 model
all body styles:
- low radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- straight up and down, folding windshield
- two-man top

1923 model
all body styles:
- low radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- slant windshield
- one-man top
roadster:
- completely revised trunk design

1924 model
all body styles:
high radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- slant windshield
- one-man top
roadster:
- trunk same as 1923

Black radiator cars for the casual observer:

1917 through 1922: basically the same
1923: unique
1924 and 1925: basically the same


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 11:07 pm:

Interesting...I just happened to read an article by Bruce McCalley (RIP) titled "The Roaring Twenties" in Volume 8 Number 6 1973 Vintage Ford. In part;
"About mid -1923 - the date is uncertain - the entire Ford line was restyled somewhat. The centerdoor sedan had been discontinued; the line consisted of a two-door and four-door sedan, a coupe, a touring car and a runabout - plus the chassis and truck models. The touring and runabout models continued in the body styles set in late 1922 except for a restyling of the front end, which had remained relatively unchanged from the 1917 models. This restyling consisted of the following changes:
1. The height of the radiator was increased.
2. The firewall (called the "dash" by Ford), was made larger and the body cowl section was modified to match.
3. A new and larger hood made the front of the car appear much more massive.
4. New hood clash strips to mate with the wider hood were installed.
5. An apron was added below the radiator which now covered the front motor mount and frame, adding a more finished look to the car.
6. The front edges of the front fenders were given a lip which matched the lines of the radiator apron, adding further to the finished appearance.
Until about Spring of 1923, all Ford cars had used a firewall made of wood. At about this time a new metal firewall appeared, prior to the change to the higher radiator style."

Further on in the article;
"The Ford cars for 1924 were but a continuation of the late 1923 models. A number of minor mechanical modifications were made during the year. The most significant of these was the introduction of the new so-called "four dip" engine pan which made it much easier to adjust the number four rod bearing and the rear main bearing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael J. Wilcox on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 11:35 pm:

These changes describe my touring exactly, including the lip on the fenders and apron below the radiator. It's obvious that the low radiator and shell do not belong on the car. It's titled a 23 but the motor number belongs to a 19. Who knows when it was built. It does have 21 inch tires which begs another mystery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 11:53 pm:

Michael, the article also details the evolution of the four-door sedan, and pretty much places my Fordor squarely as a mid '23. I am constantly having people tell me that it is NOT a '23 for various reasons such as the high radiator, radiator apron, etc. the article also talks about the different bead patterns on the front fenders, the so-called truck fender, and says that both fenders could have been used on cars and trucks, and that some may have even had one of each installed. My car has one of each, and I know of at least two others with both styles, and have seen more at some shows.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, May 01, 2016 - 11:57 pm:

Please, please, please don't confuse calendar years with model years.

The quotes from Bruce's article are basically in terms of calendar years.

Repeat after me: a 1923 Ford is a 1923 Ford is a 1923 Ford……..

There is no such thing as a "late 1923" model, i.e. a 1923 Ford with a high radiator. Likewise, there is not such thing as a "late 1922" Ford, i.e. a 1922 Ford roadster or touring with a slant windshield, one man top and, in the case of the roadster, the higher, revised trunk.

Again, it is very simple and logical yet so unfortunate that there is such a failure to understand it:

1922 model
all body styles:
- low radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- straight up and down, folding windshield
- two-man top

1923 model
all body styles:
- low radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- slant windshield
- one-man top
roadster:
- completely revised trunk design

1924 model
all body styles:
high radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- slant windshield
- one-man top
roadster:
- trunk same as 1923

Black radiator cars for the casual observer:

1917 through 1922: basically the same
1923: unique
1924 and 1925: basically the same


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Monday, May 02, 2016 - 12:21 am:

No confusion here, the article clearly states in several places that changes were made in "mid 1923" and "spring 1923" and "about mid 1923, date is uncertain", and then also says that the 1924 cars were a continuation of the late 1923 cars. It does not say that the mid-1923 changes signify a new model year.

As for my Fordor, I have been told that it is a 1924 for several reasons, however the article clearly states, and shows pictures of 1923 Fordors that are exactly like mine, and further the descriptions match my car, including the high radiator. The 1922 pre-production and early 1923 Fordors used aluminum body panels, but as production increased, the aluminum was phased out and replaced by steel panels. By 1924, all body panels were steel. My car has a mixture of aluminum and steel, again placing it somewhere mid to late 1923.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, May 02, 2016 - 01:09 am:

Below is information compiled by Bruce McCalley which is contained in his paperback encyclopedia (published in 1989) as well as his "black book" published in 1994. This information supersedes what was published in Vintage Ford in 1973 (which probably taken from Ray Miller's and his book "From Here to Obscurity" published in 1971).

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1923.htm

http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1924.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Monday, May 02, 2016 - 10:25 am:

OK, so one says "spring" and "mid-year" and the other says "August." There must be a lot of wrong 1923 cars like mine and Michael's out there! Many have serial numbers that place them well before August, but they have the high radiators and other changes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, May 02, 2016 - 11:04 am:

Don't complicate it by discussing specific dates or using general terms such as "early" or "late."

Again, a 1923 Ford has a low radiator, "1923" being an adjective, not a specific point in time.

If it has a high radiator, it is not a 1923 Ford even if it came off the assembly line in 1923.

It's very, very simple.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jeff Hood -Long Beach, California on Monday, May 02, 2016 - 01:05 pm:

Not trying to complicate it, it is already complicated. I just don't think it is that "cut and dried." Even the encyclopedia has conflicting information, stating that the new 1923 coupe had the integral deck, but also stating that it was introduced in August, which should then make it a 1924?

"The Coupelet and Sedan (Centerdoor) continued into 1923 with minor modifications that were introduced in 1922, but were both replaced with the new Coupe and Tudor Sedan in August 1923.
The front section of the car was revised about August 1923, with a new and higher radiator, larger hood, a valence under the radiator, and revised cowl section to match. These cars were generally referred to as “1924” models in Ford literature.
The Coupe and Tudor Sedan were all new, with coupe doors opening at the rear. Body construction continued with the metal panel over a wood frame design."

So, were there coupes with integral decks, forward opening doors, and low radiators, or were all coupes with integral decks and forward opening doors built after August and with high radiators and therefore 1924's?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Monday, May 02, 2016 - 01:25 pm:

Just forget the dates and don't get bogged down in the academic details.

When simply referring to a 19XX Model T Ford, the year is an ADJECTIVE, not a specific point in time.

1922 model
all body styles:
- low radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- straight up and down, folding windshield
- two-man top

1923 model
all body styles:
- low radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- slant windshield
- one-man top
roadster:
- completely revised trunk design

1924 model
all body styles:
high radiator, hood and cowl
touring and roadster:
- slant windshield
- one-man top
roadster:
- trunk same as 1923

Black radiator cars for the casual observer:

1917 through 1922: basically the same
1923: unique
1924 and 1925: basically the same


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