True Date it rolled off the assembly line?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: True Date it rolled off the assembly line?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Monday, May 02, 2016 - 11:15 pm:

Steve Jelf just courteously told me the day my engine was made, but are there any records to conclude the day the actual car rolled off the assembly line?...I would think that is my T's actual birthday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tony Bowker, Ramona, CA on Monday, May 02, 2016 - 11:54 pm:

No
If you find such info it would be great, we have dates the engine was cast and date the block was stamped. I have the body number of my 14 touring, but there does not seem to be a list connecting body numbers to the date it was stamped. I guess they must have existed a some time but lost in the 102 years since....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 12:07 am:

The best we can do is guess. If the car was made at Highland Park, the engine was most likely made on the day the serial number indicates, and the engine would have been put into a body the same day or within two or three days. But if it was made at one of the branch assembly plants the engine may have been assembled later than the number indicates, and maybe put into a vehicle a week or two later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 01:06 am:

Since the engine number is so crucial to documenting the chronological order of the car and determining how many cars were made in a given day, I would think that the day the engine was stamped would be the birthday of the car and the day it rolled off the assembly line. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 01:52 am:

For many 1909-11 cars there are records in the archive and to a lesser percentage for cars sold up until early 1915.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/349073.html?1363798598


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 10:23 am:

Even if you have an engine with a clear reading casting date, and engine number, you can't be 100% sure that it is original to the car, although it probably is. I have a '13 that has an early '13 engine in it, and I know it is not the original, because I have registrations from the 1950's that prove it. Apparently the original engine for the car was replaced with a later engine at some point, and the original engine number was stamped on the block. Perhaps at a later date that engine was removed and a '13 block was installed that is quite close to the original.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 10:43 am:

My chassis number and engine number match, so I am certain my engine is original to the car and that it rolled off the assembly line on the day it was stamped in March of 1926.

Having matching numbers is about the only way you can be sure your engine is original to the car unless you have the original title. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 10:53 am:

Jim is correct. Before December 12, 1925, whether you have the original engine is guesswork except in the very unlikely case of having the original documents.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 02:44 pm:

Just know for sure that dating a Model T is not and exact science.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 04:36 pm:

The early engine blocks had casting dates.

The casting date and serial number date were often around six weeks or two months different.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By arnie johansen on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 07:14 pm:

Jim:

I was under the impression that the block and transmission assembly was stamped when that assembly was finished. I do not know if the assembly was necessarily put in a vehicle that same date. In fact I was under the impression (perhaps incorrectly) that the engine number was stamped on the frame the day the engine assembly was installed in the car.

Perhaps others can comment on the accuracy of these comments!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 08:57 pm:

I believe that the engine was stamped just before it was installed in the car on the assembly line. One of the most important last steps in the assembly of a Model T was the stamping of the engine (and in the case of my '26, the chassis with the same number). This became the official serial number and chronological sequence of the car not only for the day it came off the assembly line, but the chronological order from 1908 to that point.

I'm sure Henry wanted a report every day on how many cars were manufactured that day, and the engine numbers were the way this was determined. We use it in the same way now, to determine when our cars rolled off the assembly line. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dean Kiefer - Adams, MN on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 09:52 pm:

I guess I am lucky having the original Bill of Sale on our 14 with engine number and body number and the date ordered and date delivered written on the bill of sale.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, May 03, 2016 - 10:30 pm:

For Jim Patrick - further down is evidence that supports it is highly unlikely that your 1926 car was assembled on the date listed in the engine assembly records. But you have a great looking coupe and if you want to use the date the engine serial number was recorded in the engine log range -- most folks won't know and won't care. By the way -- I don't mind if people use that date, I just don't want them to think that is "THE Date" when in many cases it is not. For cars assembled when Highland Park was still the main engine assembly location, it is possible that it could be the actual date -- especially if the engine was assembled early in the day.

We all have lots to learn and relearn about our cars, how they were made, where they were assembled, and when they were assembled, when they were shipped, and when did the customer pick them up.

It varies by year. For the earlier Model T Ford cars they were only assembled at two locations – the main USA Piquette Plant and the Ford Canada plant across the river in Canada. As Roger shared above, for the USA cars from 1,119 assembled/manufactured Mar 3 1909 to serial number 70,702 assembled/manufactured Sep 29, 1911 the shipping documents are available and provide the actual date the car was assembled. Ref pages 475 to 499 of Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Ford” available in paper back as well as CD version. For the cars that were assembled in Canada, sometimes but not always the date the engine and/or chassis was shipped to Ford of Canada is listed in those same Ford USA records. For example, #1,335 chassis only was either assembled or shipped to Ford of Canada on Mar 10, 1909 ref page 478. While on Oct 5, 1911 and Engine Only was listed and sent to Ford of Canada. In general chassis were sent earlier and engine only became the norm as Canada took over more and more of the assembling and even production of the car. Note from the listing it is clear that from early assembly – the engines that went into the cars were NOT installed sequentially by engine serial number. From page 478, we see the following:
engine 1,155 installed in a completed car on Mar 3, 1909
engine 1,160 installed Mar 4
engine 1,165 installed Mar 3
engine 1,168 installed Mar 4

1,210 Mar 5
1,215 Mar 6
1,216 Mar 5
1,220 Mar 5
1,225 Mar 6
1,230 Mar 5
1,235 Mar 6
1,240 Mar 6
1,244 Mar 8
1,245 Mar 3
1,250 Mar 6
1,255 Mar 8

Not off by years but clearly off by days.



In England they initially started assembling cars from CKD (completely knocked down) cars in/around Dec 1911. Ref page 45 The English Ford Book and gradually began producing more and more of the parts. In late Feb 1914 they began a moving assembly line (the first in motor industry outside of the USA) ref page 227 English Ford Book. Note on page 526 of Bruce’s book he notes serial numbers (not engines – just the numbers) were sent to Cork Ireland on Sep 20, 1921 from 5,400,001 to 5,415,000. Those would be stamped on engines that were actually cast, machined, and assembled there and then sent to Trafford Park (English assembly location). So those numbers would have been out of order for the USA logs even though they were using USA serial numbers.

Speeding up since it is time to turn off the lights…

On page 524 Bruce notes at the beginning of Jan 1921, "Daily production figures no longer listed in the records. The production figures shown hereafter are the differences between the serial numbers, NOT necessarily the actual number produced."

So what does that mean? They no long let you know how many engine were assembled at the main plant. Rather it was just the number of serial numbers listed. Some would have been assembled at the main plant while other numbers would have been shipped to a branch plant to be stamped onto an engine assembled at the branch plant.

Based on the numbers normally assembled at the main plant, for any given serial number it is likely that it was assembled at the main plant. But clearly many of them were not assembled there. On pages 515 to 523 Bruce also includes the serial numbers (not engines) that were shipped to the Long Island Branch Assembly plant starting in Jan 1918 and ending Dec 1919. (The process continued but Bruce stopped reporting the details.) Those blocks of serial numbers ranged from as low as 50 to a high of 800 in a single day (The 800 day was Jul 1, 1919 when 1935 other serial numbers were also used and probably assembled at the main plant. So on that day about 30 percent of the serial numbers were produced later at the Long Island factory. And blocks of serial numbers were also shipped to other branches that assembled engines. On page 526 they have listed 15,000 numbers sent to Cork, Ireland on Sep 20, 1921. They listed just under 4000 other serial numbers that day.

So when were the engine numbers stamped onto the engine? All the evidence supports that they stamped the engine serial number onto the engine once the engine and transmission were complete as an engine assembly (to include manifolds, carb, spark plugs etc) From the book “Ford Methods and Ford Shops” published in 1915 but it includes material originally published in 1914 or even as early as late 1913 in a magazine series. On page 75 we have operation # 84 one man 68 seconds, listed as: Operation 84. Paint the motor and remove it from the end of the assembly line to a small wooden stand on rollers. Then on the next page 76 it has a photo with a caption that reads:
The man at the left is numbering the motor. The man at the right is trying the standard starting crank to see that it is right for its engagement with the crank shaft
These operations are performed as the motor stands on the small truck

The phrase in the caption above is “THE MAN AT THE LEFT IS NUMBERING THE MOTOR.” Note I don’t see a man with a hammer and a punch in the photo – but I may have missed it. But I do believe the caption is correct.

If you want to see the photos please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/525519.html?1426469056

And if we look at the 10,000,000 and 15,000,000 engines being stamped they are NOT in a car yet.

That also lines up with the following entry from the archives: On page 564 of Bruce McCalley’s “The Model T Ford”, his electronic Encyclopedia on his new CD and also in his on-line encyclopedia at: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/doc24.htm he states:

MAR 18, 1924 Letter from Chicago Branch
"We hear stories that some salesmen are telling their customers to be sure and look at the motor number of any car when they buy in order to be sure they get a late motor number. These particular salesmen are just making a lot of trouble for themselves because at the new plant we have hundreds of motors that have been standing there for thirty days or more and will be going into the cars in the course of production. This means that all dealers will receive motor numbers from the Burnham plant that will be considerably lower in number than those motors received from the Chicago plant so just stop your salesmen making any remarks at all about motor numbers because in so doing they are going to make a lot of trouble for you when we start shipping from the new plant."
A.W.L. Gilpin
Branch Manager
P.S. In correspondence the old Ford plant in Chicago is referred to as the Chicago plant and the new plant is referred to as the Burnham plant because it is near the Burnham railroad yards.

Which indicates those motors (engines) had serial numbers already stamped on them when they were stored.

For Jim Patrick, if your engine number is listed on the daily engine logs in Mar 1926 it is almost certain that it did NOT get placed into the chassis on the date it was listed on the engine logs? Why? Because the cars were assembled at Highland Park and in Jan 1925 the River Rouge plant became the main engine manufacturing plant. The last 62 serial numbers that Bruce has listed as being sent from the main engine plant in the River Rouge back the Highland Park plant were listed on Feb 13, 1925. So as soon as those 62 numbers were used all the engines at the Highland Park plant would have to be shipped/moved from the River Rouge to the Highland Park plant.

So how long did that take? We don’t know for sure. But we have two recorded entries. The first was

From: http://mtfca.com/encyclo/C-D.htm#Chassis1 Bruce states: under
FRAME NUMBERS
Accession 94. Walter Fishleigh files.
“Motor number was first placed on frame side member R.H. on Dec. 12, 1925. Motor No. 12,861,044. Information obtained from Mr. Burns, Final Assy., Highland Park.” But on page 533 of Bruce’s book the engine logs show engine number range of 12,855,160 to 12,863,164 were entered in the engine log book. So that serial number was entered in the log book on Dec 5, 1925. And since we know the car was assembled at the Highland Park plant on Dec 12, 1925 we know that the engine came from the River Rouge engine shop. So it took about 8 days to go from the Highland Park plant engine shop to being installed in a car on the assembly line.

The second illustration we have is car/engine #15,000,000. On May 25, 1927 the engine log records that 3 engines, number 14,999,999; 15,000,000 and 15,000,001 were held out for the next day. In Stern’s “Tin Lizzie” on page 116 it shows the 15,000,000 Model T Ford coming off the assembly line. The caption reads “May 26, 1927.” Note that is one day after the engines were held out of the normal production flow. I suspect if they had been sent through the normal channel it would have been closer to the 8 or so days documented above. But note that it was NOT the same day.


Additional time would have been required for any cars assembled at other branch plants. And for any engines assembled at other branch plants.

Please sea also Trent’s excellent posting at: Sunday, December 04, 2005 - 10:39 pm http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/8925.html

On page 501 of Bruce McCalley’s “The Model T Ford” we see:

In paragraph one he writes : “The serial (engine numbers listed here are taken directly from the daily log books of the engine assembly department of the Ford Motor Company. These original books are complete from 1915 until the end of Model T Engine production in 1941.”

In paragraph four same page 501 he describes how blocks of engine numbers were also shipped to the different assembly plants. Those numbers are indicated in some places and not in others. But the date for those numbers is the date the numbers were shipped off and probably not the date the engine was assembled.

In paragraph five (last paragraph same page 501) he says: “The author cannot stress too strongly that care must be used when attempting to accurately date a car by its engine number. Remember that the dates shown are those when the engine assembly was completed, not the car, or the date a block of engine number records were shipped to another assembly plant. Further more, {caps added by Hap) Ford ONLY STAMPED A SERIAL NUMBER ON A COMPLETED ENGINE (ENGINE, TRANSMISSION, PAN, HEAD, ETC.) during the Model T era, not on a bare block or a “short block” which was destined for the replacement market.

So much more to still discover. Thank you to everyone who is asking questions and especially to those who are helping us gather data. Dean information from cars like yours can be very valuable to our efforts.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l915 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick on Wednesday, May 04, 2016 - 12:32 am:

Thank you Hap. I marvel at your research and the way you must spend hours documenting your findings to share with us. I always learn a lot from your posts.

My "theories" are arrived at by the way I think things should have been, but it is not always the case. You back up your summations with evidence. My hat is off to you. Thanks again. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Eric Hylen- Central Minnesota on Wednesday, May 04, 2016 - 02:18 am:

My '14 is a good example of the progression that Hap has shared. It is a documented car with its original bill of sale and original Wisconsin title. The engine serial number is mid-March. The body number is April. The car was delivered in early July. I'd have to look at the sale bill to remember when the customer ordered the car. If I remember correctly, he had to wait a couple of months for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, May 04, 2016 - 06:37 am:

Jim,

Thank you for the encouragement. A lot of folks have done so much to help document how things were, how things may have been, how to make the engine run better, mistakes to avoid etc. I often think of the illustration from the story “Stone Soup.” As each of us contributes the items or information we have the better the outcome will be.

Eric,

Yes, cars like yours with the original documentation and history are a window into the past. They can help better document some of the differences over time and between the various assembly plants.

For John Noonan,

You asked the original question, “…are there any records to conclude the day the actual car rolled off the assembly line?. .I would think that is my T's actual birthday.” I didn’t have your car’s serial number/date the engine was listed on the engine assembly logs last night. From the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/638435.html?1462265492#POST835930 you shared your engine number was 11980369 and Steve Jelf responded it was included in the number range listed on the Wed Jun 17, 1925 engine log entry. That was at the end of that production day as it ran from 11,973,172 to 11,980,811. And your engine number also falls in the range of those produced after the River Rouge became the main engine production facility. So as mentioned above, if your engine was produced at the River Rouge it would have been shipped/carried to either the Highland Park plant or to one of the branch plants or the serial number would have been sent to one of the branch plants to be stamped onto and engine that was assembled at that branch. So, unless someone has some additional information on their car’s history (such as the 1909-1911 shipping documents) you cannot know when it rolled off the assembly line. In the case of one of a 1928 Model A Ford here in Sumter, SC, they have the history of the car. And since the first owner went to the assembly plant in Charlotte NC to pick up the car and wrote down the date – they know when that one was assembled.

But for many of the rest of us, we won’t know the exact date our car rolled off the assembly line or was “born.” But you can sort of think of the date the serial number was entered on the ledger as the most likely date that the doctor heard the heart beat for the first time.

Thank you all for your contributions to the forum and our hobby.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Wednesday, May 04, 2016 - 10:28 pm:

Thanks for all the great info, especially you Hap! I'll just consider my T's birthday to be the whole Month of June 1925, and cover all the bases. :-)


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