My 1919 TT has the original honeycomb style radiator and always boiled when driven. I pulled the radiator and had a shop boil it out and even though I advised him not to pressurize it to leak test it he did anyway. He could find no leaks and didn't cause any.
I re-installed and took it for a drive last week, it was a cool windy day, about 60 degrees. After about 2 miles it started boiling again with lots of water coming out the top around the cap. I didn't have a gasket under the cap. I would play with the position of the spark lever retarding it a little at a time, was not running wide open but about 1/2 throttle and could get to stop boiling over for a little while. I stopped after about 4 miles and used my handheld IR thermometer with the following results:
Cylinders below the head: 270 - 280 F
Head: 210 F
Upper Rad inlet: 205 - 208 F
Lower Rad outlet: 195 F
After the drive I added a gallon of water to bring it up to the deflection plate in the fill port.
Yesterday took it for another drive with approximately the same temperature readings. I could not get it to stop boiling while driving After about a 8 mile run I added a gallon of water.
I did adjust my mixture while driving to get a happy medium between lean and rich mixture. I have not driven it at night to see if I get a cherry red exhaust manifold as I don't have any lights. I would like to tear it down this summer and start the restore and trying to solve the heating problem before I do.
Can someone comment on my temperature readings if these are normal? Should I just bite the bullet and buy a new radiator?
The honeycomb style was never original on a Model T, it's an aftermarket radiator. The problem with honeycomb radiators is that they're impossible to rod out to improve flow and the small difference between the readings of the upper and lower radiator inlets points to a non working radiator. With a good one, you should be able to hold the lower radiator hose without burning your hand after a drive.
Did the shop comment about the flow through the radiator when testing it?
Do you have flow through the engine? Maybe it's blocked with rust and scale there?
(Message edited by Roger K on May 03, 2016)
Take a compression test to try and see if there's a leak of combustion gasses into the cooling system. It seems to be getting quite hot on top and this could point to a leak. It could also point towards no circulation but since it's back together a comp test is easiest. (and cheapest).
Roger has it 100% correct. You need a new radiator.
I would give this a try-Once you get it started pull the spark lever to the bottom and leave it there.If you start to heat up richen the mixture and see if this helps? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
I would give it a try and you can buy a new radiator later. Tim
I agree with Charlie B that a possible head gasket problem may cause the overheating. There is an exhaust gas test kit you can buy at the auto store that detects exhaust in the radiator. I used it to identify a blown head gasket on a Model A. Worth a try before buying a new radiator after you check the compression.
It really doesn't matter much what the cause for heating is, whether it's a bad head gasket, too retarded, etc. The main issue here is this:
Upper Rad inlet: 205 - 208 F
Lower Rad outlet: 195 F
So, no matter where or how the heat is generated, the radiator is unable to transfer that heat from the coolant to the air. Even if the flow rate was poor, the exiting coolant is only 10 degrees cooler than when it entered the radiator.
The radiator is bad.
I would buy a couple of gallons of vinegar. Drain everything throw in the vinegar and top it just nicely with fresh water. Drive it around the block and let it sit for 24 hours (maybe 48 hours). Then drain and flush and refill. You may be pleasantly surprised. Worth a try for $7.00!!!
You need to check these things out. Especially when over a Grand in $ is at stake. If the water is being overheated by a comp. leak thermo syphoning isn't going to do squat.
You mentioned a "deflection plate". Are you sure that the "baffle" or what you call the deflection plate is not loose and sitting on top of the core? This happened to me on a standard core radiator and the same result that you have, about ten minutes of driving and over heat. This was after the radiator was boiled out by a radiator shop. Just thinking!!
I'm no expert but other than my '20 which came with a newer flat tube radiator, regarding the other 4 T's I've acquired (one is gone now), I have yet to meet a radiator that was over 90 years old that didn't need replaced. Same with the '30 model A. Sure I wish I had the over $4K I've spent on radiators the last 3 years, but I can drive all day at 90 degrees outside and no problems. Just my 2 cents, adjusted for inflation.
The man said it was a honeycomb stile which might make it newer? To tell the truth i do not know what is wrong but i think [questionable] simple things should be tried ?? David spends the big money for the new radiator and still has trouble?? What should he buy next?? Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
I have an old Peerless honeycomb radiator on my 1919 T. I always ran it with a good working vintage water pump. Since I've been on this forum I have changed the head to an earlier low style and installed a spiffy updraft carburetor. In both cases I tried both with and without the water pump. Without the water pump it would over flow after filling the radiator; usually within a few minutes of driving and on a corner. Every morning I would fill it and it would over flow.
Right now I'm running without the pump and I have yet to add water ... just let it find its level. It seems to be ok. When I stop the car I feel the head, the top of the radiator and the water I let pipe. They are progressively cooler, so I guess it's working fine. No boil over. It's still not very hot in Rochester. I'm anxious to see the results when we get some heat here in the summer.
Just because you have a fan belt doesn't mean it's tight enough to turn the fan. Check your belt for slippage.
Tim is correct my 27 has a new radiator in it and my Model A coupe has a new one that went in with the new motor and trans. I have no overheating issues even in the Georgia heat. I would try the old one especially if the car isn't ready to go yet! The new radiators are high but u get piece of mind when u go to leave home.
I'd see if you could find a radiator shop with an ultra-Sonic cleaning tank. But the idea being to really clean the INside as much as the outside. After that you can try it again and see how much it cools. Like Jerry said, regardless of other temperatures you need to focus on the inlet temp vs the outlet temp.
Roger: Did the shop comment about the flow through the radiator when testing it?
He did say it had good flow through it.
Do you have flow through the engine? Maybe it's blocked with rust and scale there?
The motor had a complete overhaul in the mid 90's in a local machine shop so going out on a limb and saying yes.
Charlie: Have not tested the compression, will put this on the top of the list.
Kenneth: That is how the previous owner told me to drive it, spark advanced all the way but I always tried to adjust the mixture to a mid point where it ran good so will try to richen it up a little.
Les: I did the vinegar treatment last year, I could do it again now that the radiator has been boiled out.
R.S.: The "deflection" plate is fixed in the top and not loose.
Mark: I have 2 vintage water pumps that came along as extra parts in the deal. I am torn between installing one or carrying them in the tool box to use as wheel chocks.
Seth: I'll look for a shop with an ultra sonic tank and try that.
Thank you all for your responses, I have a lot of the "newbee" fears of cracking a head or block. I need to adjust my thinking that the T must percolate a little as that is how the coolant circulates but right now it's not a normal mode of operation.
I've got my to do list for the weekend so maybe I'll leave the boat in the garage one more weekend.
David, I was taught that while driving with the spark lever all the way down may seem OK, it's best to slowly pull it down until you hear the engine change and leave it there. Too far down I believe can cause pre-detonation and piston damage.
Ken, I agree with you in theory, but jts if he did buy a new rad and it didn't help I look at it as it still being an improvement in the overall condition of the vehicle. Maybe I just like to spend money, I don't know!! Certainly an easy look-see would be the head gasket, and if that's the issue then he "lucked out", if not, well, he's only out a few bucks and couple hours of time, pistons probably need cleaned off anyway, then it's on to the catalogue for a rad!!
David,How much has this t engine ran since rebuilt? Do you have your engine pans installed? Unless your going after a perfect restore i would not replace your rad with a org round tube.I bought a new round tube for the not correct 15 and i wish i had bought the flat tube instead.Good luck! Bud in Wheeler,Mi.
Ken, The engine has not run very much since overhaul, maybe 2-3 hours a couple times a year since overhaul. I will run by the tool shop today when I'm in the "Big City" and pick up a compression tester and will be first on the list Friday.
I wonder if the vinegar trick would work for heads and blocks without thermal siphon Les? I stuck a gas range in the shop for the purpose of cleaning parts like J and M does as no one around here does that. Used PM to ask George Mills if 900 degrees would be a bad idea as the oven will go that high on self clean. He suggested checking with a junk block and cooling it slowly for warping. Funny what you never think of! I can easily do parts from warm to 900 now.
Smart move Dave. There's a logical progression to checking out problems like yours. They go from easiest/cheapest to harder/ more $. If you find one or two (usually companion cyls.) low there's a problem hopefully with the gasket. Not wild about the spark lever all the way down business. I'd get away from that in any case. Not right. I'd forget the water pumps for now too. In some cases, like parading, a number of folks swear they help but you sound like you're really cooking. Don't think it'll help as I suspect another culprit. Keep us posted. + if you don't know the proper procedure for doing a comp. test ask.
Your rad is NOT cooling.....
Even if the heat production was excessive, a working rad would cool more than 10 degrees. So either it is not cooling or there is no flow. The cheapest test is flow. There are two components to flow, the rad and the block. Make sure water can flow through the block, by blocking the bottom, fill with water and then remove the block at the bottom. It should rush out, not trickle. Do the same with the rad.
If both flow good, then you need either a new core or rad (more $)...
The whole test will take less than two hours....
Vinegar has saved me a lot of money over the years. Dissolves the scale build up at very low risk.
I have saved a couple of honeycomb rads with it. A more aggressive treatment is to remove it and lay it down flat. Put a fat O ring in the neck a carefully snug the rad cap. Then pour straight vinegar in the lower neck until it just nicely fills the core. Give it a couple of days. Good flush. It should now look clean inside and a full flow garden hose should pour out of the bottom nicely
Thanks Les, I am going to heat the oven to 105 and check it. Then do as you suggest in the post above. Finally flush out from the bottom to the top and see what comes out!
What Tony said....
What about checking the running with another radiator (borrowed) and see if the motor heat is kept down before you spring for a new one? If one that works in another car still does not cool, maybe it isn't the radiator.
I disagree about old radiators; my Model A is still running on her original radiator and so far is doing fine. When I had it worked over back in 1970, the radiator guy told me it would outlast me, if I didn't damage it.
Since then I picked up another good-looking original core radiator as an "emergency back-up."
Yes, T radiators are noted for fins separating from the tubes, which does make a radiator bad.
A honeycomb should cool, if it has good flow--did the shop check that? Is something in your block preventing free flow of the coolant--if the water isn't moving, that would explain the lack of temperature difference--IMHO.
Just had a "long shot" thought...I believe David said the engine was rebuilt a while back..and hardly run much afterward, was just wondering if while the engine was open and as they often are as such, left unattended until "buttoning up", maybe a rodent got in and built a nest. Back when I was researching all possibilities of why my Model A was overheating I came across that very scenario where some guy was tearing his hair out trying to figure it out, and once he tore his engine down..there was the water jacket packed with nuts! So I guess anything can happen. Luckily for me, it was just the need of a new radiator. And wow does this one work good. David D, I would say you're one of the lucky ones!
Unfortunately, the compression testers sold by your local auto parts store are a poor choice for a Model T. They will not fit a Model T spark plug hole, so you'll need to make or buy an adapter. More importantly, they're made for high compression engines, with a scale going up above 300 psi. This relegates your low Model T compression to a small portion of the scale, not ideal for an accurate reading. I've got around this by watching for old pressure gauges at auctions and farm sales. A scale that tops out at 80 psi is good, and 100 psi is OK too.
Here are a few things to try on your cooling situation: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG96.html
Good point Steve!
FWIW, even if a radiator flows good, that's no indication that it will cool. It can be scaled up inside, limiting heat transfer. Les's suggestion of a vinegar soaking is a good and inexpensive way of cleaning the interior of the rad.
I have 2 comp. gauges. About 20 years purchase time difference between them. Both go to 300 Lbs. Both marked in 10 Lb. increments. The first printed # on one is 30 the other is 50. Both are OK for T testing so a hunt for a low pressure gauge is not really necessary. Perhaps better but a modern properly marked is perfectly OK. Might even be more accurate than a 50 year old low pressure gauge. While I admit that if alone a screw in type is better (a must in fact) a rubber tipped type will work with an assistant. It also eliminates the need for a collection of adapters that might leak and give a false reading. T pressures are too low to begin with so you don't want that at all. Even Wifey can help! Been there. Done that. It needs to be done. Too much $ at stake for guessing.
Upper inlet 205 and lower outlet 195. You obviously
do not have a flow problem in a good radiator. You
have a non-cooling radiator, You need a different
radiator. Even with no flow the bottom would be
markedly cooler on a 60 degree day. Unless you
left the brake on while driving up a steep hill you
need a new radiator.
Pulled the plugs one at a time and checked compression with following results.
1 - 40 psi
2 - 37
3 - 40
4 - 36
On the first compression stroke cylinder pressure would come up to abt 25 psi then on subsequent compression strokes would register the value listed above.
I pulled the radiator off and it is laying flat filled with vinegar. I'll flush it out in a couple of days, check the flow and put it back together.
A new radiator will at the very least will take care of at least half of your problems. It will make your T a different car. It took me many miles of looking for what I thought was a decent original radiator that wasn't leaking and 'looked' pretty good. But it didn't cool. Wont do that again.
Final # after a few cranks is what you go by (5 to 7 revolutions usually). No indication of a blown gasket judging by the results you gave. Go forward with your clean out, modify your useage of the spark lever and hope for the best.
Even a totally cleaned out radiator is not going to cool if the fins and tubes have lost their connection. FWIW.
Doug: The radiator is a honey comb so no tube/fin connection.
I have arrived at the conclusion that if the vinegar treatment does not work I will bite the bullet and buy a new one.
I did find out the fan belt is not the correct one. When checking the belt for tightness and trying to make an adjustment noticed there was a washer between the fan mounting arm and the block which was placed there to move the fan forward in an attempt to keep the belt from rubbing on the timer cover. After a discussion with Steve at Lang's found out the 25 7/8" belt was not the correct one, I should have a 20 3/4" belt. That would allow the belt to move away from the timer cover therefore the spacer between the block and the fan support arm is not required and the adjustment bolt will work as designed. Lang's did not have that size belt so he advised me to get a serpentine belt from a local auto supply.
I didn't ask Lang's if this was a temporary inventory shortage of 20" belts or they just don't stock them. I remember seeing photos on the forum of T's with serpentine belts, so wondering if this is the same solution others use to overcome this shortage?
A 10-12 degree difference between the top and bottom of the radiator isn't nearly enough. That radiator needs to become a wall ornament and you need a new flat-tube radiator from Berg's. If it's a show car you will have to use a round tube (also available from Berg's) but the flat tube radiator cools better and will solve your heating problems.
I have a Berg's flat tube and you can't make my T overheat.
The old aftermarket honeycomb on my 23 touring wasn't doing its job. After trying all the usual treatments shown in my link above, it still wasn't. So I bit the financial bullet and got a new flat tube from Berg's. So far it's worked so well that when I get home from town the car not only doesn't boil, it doesn't even gurgle. I'm looking forward to seeing how it does in July and August.
Unfortunately, any old radiator might be clean, but still not conduct heat in a way to cool the engine. The Honeycomb cannot be rodded out, so, only boiling it didn't do the job. Sorry about that, but for the best job of cooling, a new flat tube radiator will do the trick. For more original look the round tube. The round tube doesn't cool quite as well, but if new and kept clean, will do the job. The honeycomb was not original to the T. It is a good radiator when new, but like the others have said, your best bet for cooling the T is a new radiator.
In my experience the vinegar treatment has been effective. When you dump it out, please dump it into a bucket and see how much particulate you get. Take a bright light and take a good look inside. If you are seeing non scaled brass then give it a good flush with water. If there is still fair evidence of scale then maybe filter the vinegar through a paint filter and use it again for another day. As you have some good "before " temp readings you could try it and see if progress is happening
I wish for you as much luck as I have had
Took your advice the past few days Les two galleons of distilled white vinegar just filled my 16 radiator 2.68 a gallon. it sat for 48 hours then was heated to 140 degrees for 6 hours. The radiator has a few minor hiccups with very minor leaks. flushed it out bottom to top first using a clean white sheet as a filter. Then flushed several ways using plumbing caps to block off outlets The pictures taken were two bright on a sunny day but all kinds of debris came out from bugs to particles large enough to plug a tube. Last my 6.5 horse weed eater was used several ways through different openings to blow out any thing left.
Water runs through easily now but my last test will hooking up my hot water heater to the bottom and seeing how much the water cools with a box fan blowing on from bottom to top. Most of the tubes can be checked with my heat gun top to bottom with hot water moving through them.
Weed blower not weed eater!
Paul's hot water test is an effective method. I used a slight different alternative when testing a couple of tractor radiators recently. I poured a large kettle of nearly boiling water in the top with the top hose pinched off and the lower hose disconnected. I watched for flow and measured water temperature at the lower connection. In one case the water flow was puny with little cooling. In the other case the water flow was large with cooler water flowing into the bucket (greater than 20 degrees F delta).
Les, thanks for the filtering tip, I'll do that.
Les, thanks for the filtering tip, I'll do that.
Here's another thought, and I don't know if it applies to a honeycomb rad or not, but for a rad to pass a flow test, once you fill it with water with obviously the bottom capped and the tank outlet capped too, when you pull the bottom cap off, the rad should empty completely in 4 seconds. Anything more than that indicates a plugged core. Just sayin'
Tim, thanks was planning to do that but didn't have a number to compare it to.
More information, Model Ts had all kinds of creek water dumped into them,
Last year I got a sand blast attachment for my power washer, bought Home Depot play sand because it was inexpensive half price if the bag had a hole. A handy tool! Takes off debris fast but its not sharp so shot peening and flash rust is an issue.
Stuck a sheet of SS on my drive way with a head upside down on it then blasted through the water ports. The outlet was to large on the blaster and the edges of the water ports started to round. I will make a fitting to stop that. More debris came out of the head then out of the 16 radiator. The block has to be the same but I did not check it.
No one around here does the J and M method of heating the block and head for five hours, scale and debris insulate the block, head, and radiator for heat dissipation.
My 100 year old radiator with a 26 engine will be driven 35-45
I don't intend to stop half way up a hill or drive 25 MPH unless I have to.
I have always been a firm believer in what what Les has suggested with the vinegar. Heating it seems to make it more aggressive. I have also through the years played with Tang beverage powder and Cascade dishwasher powder and gotten similar results.
There is a chemical reason that it cleans and scavages...while a chemical bond can be released with certain "counter-chemicals" like lye these mentioned tricks actually throw the present pH to the opposite side and in doing so 'clean' happens.
I will also say that doing a honeycomb has always been tougher for me...I somehow suspect that a honeycomb when new was good enough to cool a T but dropped off more dramatically than a normal T radiator in time no matter how clean.
I have a low honeycomb that has a vapor leak in one place but never boiled over. Moto-meter read high at 195 but always got by. The vapor leak just bugged me, so it was changed to a new one. It's presently in a spare Bergs box that I have. I haven't sold it onward because I 'think' I am going to set it up for a flush with a gallon of purple Fabuloso...I have lately become quite a fan of Fabuloso for these pH shifting ways to clean. Seems to work as good as a 100 dollar pressure washer, without the damage.
With these pH shifting schemes beware. Someone on here got a tad angry with me a few years ago. He used the vinegar and his formerly sluggish radiator then leaked like a sieve! He had trouble understanding the uptake that it was the crud that kept his Swiss cheese radiator together and the vinegar did not rot his core
He may have left the vinegar in to long, it will "eat" the radiator if left in for to long a time.
Testing my windows 10 pictures with what I did on the 16 radiator.
Clean white bucket with some of the debris in it.
sheet I used to filter some more debris shows bright and lots of debris in the folds of the sheet.
tried to post more then one picture on the same post 10 will not let me up load any more pictures for some reason.
Range used to heat the radiator to 140 with a sheet of roofing metal holding the radiator above the burners.
I agree that "moderation " is important. Which is why I go with 2 days and then drain flush and inspect and probably test
draining the vinegar slowly unscrewing the cap almost off. The white vinegar had a slight yellow color after use.
A few of 35 OLD file cabinets for storage. With large labels I can find what I want fast and the rotating nail bin full of many different bolts is very handy.
Last picture of my latest shop improvement No more crawling under Ts for this old man.
still having trouble uploading
As a last ditch effort.....if you have a good water pump, try it and let us know if the band aid works. I have a brass works radiator and my T would still over heat. Did all the things that was suggested which did not cure the problem until I added the water pump. Yes, I understand it is a band aid to some....but it has worked in my case for over 10 years with out problems. The replacement engine that I have built has a Scat crank and may not need the water pump....I will cross that bridge when the engine is changed. My existing engine has been running for over 15 yrs. with NO bearing adjustments and performs well. I use 10/30 synthetic oil which most also consider un-necessary. Try the water pump to see if it makes the difference needed to enjoy the car...or buy a new radiator. What do you have to loose except some time? Your findings would be interesting to some of us.
Good to know what I might expect Les V. I will beat this issue or it will out live me!
On the white sheet picture notice the Debris that show are in the shadow of me taking the picture, actually most of the sheet was covered with debris.
Les V: Thanks for the advice, I have a pump and have considered putting it on to see if that helps.
I have drained the vinegar, it is a little cloudy and a flushing of water was a little rusty at first but no big chunks.
I did the flow test, filled the radiator and removed the plug from the bottom hose connection and would empty completely in 4-5 seconds.
In the process of reassembly and should have a test drive in a couple of hours if it doesn't rain.
Wondering if the lower water outlet from the radiator to the block had fins to dissipate part of the heat entering the engine would help? thermal siphon needs a 45 degree tilt and it has one with a stock T set up. Adding a few more square inches of cooling area might give the smaller 16 radiator enough cooling to equal a 26 radiator.
"thermal siphon needs a 45 degree tilt"
Why would that be?
Paul, while investigating my overheat problems the cylinder wall temperature runs about 260 degrees, the radiator outlet pipe runs so close to the block that if fins were installed on the pipe it would probably pick up heat instead of dissipating it.
Put the T together and took it for a drive. Water temperature stayed between 205 and 210 on a 20 mile drive. I stopped several times, popped the hood and took the following temperature readings:
cylinder walls: 260 - 265
Upper rad in: 205
lower rad out: 180 ~
I'm getting a 25 degree drop between top and bottom so that is a big improvement. The vinegar was very milky when dumped out. After settling there is a lot of white mineral deposits in the bottom of the bucket. Apparently the boil tank at the rad shop did not remove mineral deposits. I did not see any "shiny" metal inside the radiator after flushing so maybe I will give it one more vinegar treatment when I tear down to restore the rest of the truck.
While at the Napa store buying other supplies I spotted a mechanical temperature gauge so thought I could install that in the upper radiator hose so I could keep an eye on the temperature of the water exiting the engine and could try to manage the over heat problem by adjusting the spark or mixture. Adjusting the spark while pulling a little grade I could keep the temperature between 205 and 210 on the gauge we installed.
Thanks to all who offered advice.
My understanding of rad shop "boil outs" is they only remove oily type deposits. Mineral build up is caused by using ordinary well, creek etc water. Which is of course what T's experienced!!
I'm glad it has worked in the right direction for you. When convienient probably another 24 hours with the used vinegar (not too aggressive so little risk of damaging the brass and solder)
Jerry, If you have ever built a side arm heater for a wood stove the coil inside the stove to heat the water has to be lower then the storage tank. The one I built with an 80 gallon storage tank by direction had the storage tank in the garage just outside of the wood stove would heat the 80 gallon tank to the blow off in a few hours if you did not start using hot water. During that time the stove put out much less heat until it got the tank hot.
Henry had to have used the side arm theory to cool a T. The pipe from the head goes up about 45 degrees, the pipe from the bottom of the radiator with slightly cooler water goes up about 45 degrees. The book I used explained the ifs and buts but that was 30 years past.
David, If you got an electric temp gauge, get another sending unit, put it in the inlet tube. Then connect them with a 3 way switch to moniter the outlet and inlet tepms. On one of my cars the outlet will read 210 deg. on the inlet will read 110 deg. Don
I bought a mechanical gauge .
David, that is one sweet lookin' truck!
Love those seats!
Have you taken your truck down to Menno to show it at their Pioneer Power Show or others?
Deuy, I have only driven it in local parades, getting ready to tear down and start restore .
My 23 touring has a tired engine, but starts and runs OK. I decided that while I wait for an engine overhaul I might as well drive it and enjoy it. I pulled off the old honeycomb that wasn't dong its job, and installed the new Berg's flat tube I bought last year. Today I drove about ten miles on a sunny 85º afternoon. It didn't even gurgle. I am a happy camper.
Yeah, I know that truck of yours is soon "on" for its re-do. :-)
I am anxious for the pics! Let 'er rip! :-) I love older but I also like nice. :-)
Honestly, I was thinking "almost" on the same lines as Steve. I wanted to beg you to do another vinegar treatment to your honeycomb, try again and see but I get ya. :-)
My '19 engine is just plain wore out junk and has never O'heated even in parades and whilst 'tarded the whole time but I do have a "wheel chock" under the hood as I truly didn't have an inlet elbow back then. I did do a baking soda treatment (as explained in my Dyke's book of '24) to my rad and I swear it had something to do with it. That and the acrylic latex caulk to shut the leaks off. :-)
Steve, 85 degrees? Ick. The 50's up here. :-) Happy campers!