1913 Touring pictures

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: 1913 Touring pictures
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 07:47 pm:

I am going post pictures here of everything I can on the 13 touring we just brought home. As far as we know it has not been registered since 1928 as it still has 1928 plates on the front and rear and the wood behind the front plate shows it has been there for a very long time. This is a very original Jan. 13 car with only the wheels and rear end changed over the life of it as far we can tell. If you see anything that looks like it is not original and or want close up pictures of any part of this car let me know and I will post them here for all to see. I plan to take detailed pictures of every part before I clean it up and then get another shot after it is clean. It will take time to upload pictures as we don't have internet at home but they will be posted here as soon as I can. I also will have questions like the body number under the front seat, it looks like someone scratched a W in front of the number but the numbers are stamped. Is this normal? I will try to get a picture of it next time I post.

Under the rear seat, the past owner found a full set of side curtains that do fit this car but other than the windows being mostly gone, they look almost like repro. I have not looked yet but do they sell or did they sell repro side curtains for a 13 touring? I have pictures with them on but the top is not sitting very good on the car in my pictures because the straps are missing to hold it up.











Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 07:55 pm:

What a great car. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 08:10 pm:

Very nice original car Bob! I'd put some new rubber on it, clean it up a bit and then leave it as the time capsule it is. They're only original once. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

Fantastic car!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick J. Gunter -- Sparta, Missouri, USA on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 09:09 pm:

Wow. I love 1913s. Glad to see it going to a good home.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 09:46 pm:

Bob McD, Wow, another nice time capsule '13! I love it.
One safety thing does catch my eye. The front shock absorbers. They are neat looking, proper vintage, and era correct. But they have a serious design flaw.
It becomes an ethical dilemma when dealing with preservation class and time capsule cars. The shock absorbers are a genuine piece of the car's history. But they can become a safety landmine. They are not ridged enough between the spring and the axle. They seem to work fine at low speed. But over about 20 mph, they can become dangerously unstable under unpredictable circumstances. If a car is going to be driven, much at all. I would not want to have that type of shocks on the front end. But I also would not like to remove them from such a car.
The addition of a wishbone brace does help, but I have been told that one of the fatal accidents a few years ago did have such a brace along with this type of shock absorbers. I know the car had the shocks, but could not tell for certain from the photos if it had the brace or not. Someone else said they saw the car and that it did.

I think that should be enough about this detail for the moment. It is an amazing car, and should be looked at and enjoyed from all angles. Further discussion of the shocks should maybe be done on another thread at a later time.

Wonderful car! I look forward to lots of close-up photos, the undercarriage, engine, firewall (inside and out), and the interior.
Congratulations Bob!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 10:08 pm:

Bob - What a fantastic find! Like a "window" into American automotive history! I love the way some of the "doodlebug" guys have found a way to preserve and protect original patina and I have been studying your great photos and wondering how your beautiful '13 would look with that kind of treatment. Just from memory (always dangerous in my case) I seem to recall it was some mixture of boiled linseed oil and something clear. Anyway, whatever those guys do, it sure makes for a rich color of original "patina".

Please don't take this as criticism, as it's certainly not meant that way at all. But I believe the '13 Model "T" Touring has some sort of design flaw in the body that needed some sort of Ford factory approved reinforcement of some kind. That poses some sort of questions as far as whether your car ever had the reinforcement added or not. Do you know? Again, FANTASTIC original car, whether it has the modification or not. Not really important either way, but can't help wondering, if it does not have the extra braces or whatever, would you add that modification, or not??? I would think that most of the cars had that improvement made, as it was recommended by Henry, and again, whether "yea' or "nay", just more interesting history about your car.

Hope you'll keep us all advised as you progress in whatever you do to preserve this original car. You and Glenn Chaffin sure have something in common, right? Great car, and great forum post Bob,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 10:23 pm:

One other question Bob,.....on the front crossmember, on both sides of the U-bolt that retains the front spring, there appears to be some sort of wedge-shaped wood blocks or something, under the radiator. Hard to tell from the pictures, but can't help wondering what those are and for what purpose,....????

From your pictures Bob, that's about the only thing (except for the accessory shocks that Wayne spoke of) that's not original on your car. Never saw anything like those wood blocks or whatever they are,........harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Monday, May 09, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

Bob,
Great find, thank you for sharing.

Our 13 (May) still has wood sills without the brace and needed repair (still has original upholstery). If you have a chance, would you please post pics of the rear sill area where the door swings out. I'm curious to learn if it has the Ford (memory?) added supports. I believe Ford offered them later when they learned of the weakness.
Thanks again,
Rob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 01:27 am:

I suggest following Mark Chaffin's advice. Keep it original, the car is worth more in value and gathers more attraction compared to a restored car. The table has really turned on restored vice good original cars like what you have. You are now a Care Taker of something very special.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Kiefaber on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 06:20 am:

Bob, I'm not to far from you. If you ever get sick of it please give me first dibs...... Thanks Bobby!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 11:03 am:

What is the object to the left of the speedometer?
Are both halves of the windshield equal size? Even if your side curtains are not original, they probably work, and would make good patterns. You can always adjust the windows when you make new ones to be the same as the originals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dale Peterson College Place, WA on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 11:51 am:

In the picture of the right rear door opened, it appears there's some sort of metal brace along the inner silly. There are also two carriage bolt heads in front of the rear doors. Glen's car does not have these bolt heads visible. Is this the factory braces referred to?

The right headlight lenses has what appears to be faceting in the glass. Is this an accessory lenses or just an illusion?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach, CA on Tuesday, May 10, 2016 - 01:10 pm:

Dale, our 1913 T was built in 1912 and does not have the factory issued brace for the door sills. With the back seat loaded and the top up the doors stay closed. With the top down the doors come open when we go over a bump. It's lots of fun for the back seat passengers to have the doors come open at speed. It was red with all brass lamps when it came out of the barn in 1952. It has an early Hall Scott Ruckstell and three to one gears



13


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 06:57 pm:

I have lots of pictures to upload but very slow connection tonight so will do my best to post them all. I have already decided the aftermarket shocks looked dangerous and was thinking they need to come off to make the car safe. Also I would like to add the wishbone support. As for the body brace in the rear, this car does have it and the pictures show it well if they load. I don't know what the blocks are for under the radiator but they are held in place by wire and look home made. These pictures show a lot of details of all parts of the car. Some shots may not show the part you want to see so let me know and I will post another shot from another angle if possible.





















Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 07:18 pm:

















Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 07:36 pm:























Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 07:58 pm:








Thats all for now.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 08:17 pm:

Now for the questions,

I have no idea what the thing next to the speedo is but it had a key in the bottom of it that does not fit the car. Anyone know what this thing is?

Under the front seat the number does have a W in front of it that is stamped but its faint and also after the number is a KA stamped, what is the KA for?

I found a lot of good paint under the hood and under the front fender and even on top of the fender apron but its hard to tell if its black or blue so I need to get it out on a sunny day to check. As you can see in the hood picture where I cleaned the dirt off it has a good smooth shine to it like a show car would have so the "over restored" cars are not far off from the original finish from what I see. We will see how much paint is under all that grease and oil and even some paint is left under the dirt and rust on the body but I don't expect to find much of it left.

I hope the pictures can help someone else out and maybe help the experts decide if a part is original to a 1913 or not. I did see a lot of things different from the 26 I own and the same as some things I read about in the books and Vintage Ford.

Robert Kiefaber,
Wabash is not far so drive that Model F over here sometime and we can talk if you like this 13 :-)

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 08:39 pm:

Bob

That bracket by the speedometer is likely for a dash clock, very popular accessory back then.




Very nice T you have! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 09:47 pm:

Bob,

Great car! Yes, please take lots of photos.

Yes, the “W” in front of the bodies looks similar to some of the other “W” shown below. That would indicate that the body was manufactured by Wilson Body Company (they also supplied the bodies for the 1903 Cadillac and 1903 Fords as well as other year Fords.

Deron Shady’s 1913 had the “W” as shown below as well as the “KA”. His posting is located at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/285490.html The white ovals show where the “W and number” as well as the “KA” were located on his front seat frame.





And at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/218609.html?1308602409 David Dare who lives in Australia posted photos of his Wilson Body number of his AMERICAN made Model T.

And from Bruce’s on line Encyclopedia he has four body suppliers for the 1913 touring bodies that were to receive the metal sill reinforcements. Wilson is listed there.

Ref: Bruce McCalley’s on-line Comprehensive Encyclopedia under bodies:
JUL 14, 1913 Acc. 575, Letter 434
Noted that 1913 Touring bodies were made by
Horbert, Fisher, Wilson, and Beaudett. Apparently the
Beaudett bodies differed in construction from the others.
Beaudett bodies with a filler block on the rear door hinge
posts apparently did not need the steel reinforcing pieces.

Ref Bruce McCAlley’s Comprehensive Encyclopedia under documentation spells it Herbert. http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/doc13.htm :


JUL 14, 1913 Acc. 575, Letter 434
Noted that 1913 Touring bodies were made by
Herbert, Fisher, Wilson, and Beaudett. Apparently the
Beaudett bodies differed in construction from the others.
Beaudett bodies with a filler block on the rear door hinge
posts apparently did not need the steel reinforcing pieces.


What about the “KA”? Well for years I have not had a clue about it, but when we looked at the tags that came with an original 1914 Model T Touring we see “KA” listed as one of the finishers for the body. It is late and I don’t recall if the finishers did the final painting and upholstery or if only one of those tasks. Perhaps someone else recalls a previous posting or knows the answer. It is my limited understanding that before Ford started painting and finishing the bodies, they were produced and then finished out side of the Ford Plant. Sometimes as in the case of Beaudett (also spelled Beaudette and listed as Pontiac in many Ford documents – including those tags shown below) they built the body and were also a company that could finish the body. In the case of Wilson – they are NOT listed as one of the companies that finished the bodies. So in the case of your body as well as Deron Shady’s 1913 Wilson bodied car above – “K & A” appears to have been the company that “finished” the body.



The tags are from the Vintage Ford May - Jun 1971 and the current owner of the car had an article on the car within the last 10 years or so.







While I’m still not sure what “K & A” stands for, I am sure that was the company that was the finisher for your Wilson body.

Again, great car. Thank you for sharing the photos with us.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 10:01 pm:

Very nice find BOB.Keep it up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, May 11, 2016 - 11:02 pm:

Nice, NICE , nice! I have already bookmarked this thread for my future reference restoring my few cars.
There are so many details I see already that I don't even know what to comment about.
I continue, however, to look forward to more photos!
Thank you Bob McD!
Thanks also to Hap T for several explanations.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 01:42 am:

Bob M, - What a "treasure of originality" that car is! Thanks for taking time to share it with all of us with all those great photos!

Regarding those wood blocks under the radiator,.....I find things like that interesting. While not "original", the good thing is that that's not the sort of thing that in any way detracts from the originality of the car, and I can't help but think that to shape those to fit wood blocks in that space and to secure them with wire, tells me that someone really had a purpose for them to go to that much trouble to put them there, and I can't imagine why, unless it was to provide a place to attach a license plate (or something) easily with wood screws. But then, there'd be obvious screw holes,.....hmmm,.....an interesting "mystery" for sure.

Anyway, thanks again for the post and great pictures Bob,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 09:12 am:

Like Wayne, I bookmarked this one too for reference. From what I see, she looks to have the dark blue paint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 09:39 am:

Please note the number on the serial number plate on the firewall, and don't scratch it up like Mark Chaffin did! It should be a pretty early number too with that style of plate, and especially the knurled spark and throttle rods. I'll bet the serial number is 180XXX. Let us know the engine number and radiator number also. Fantastic find. Interesting too is the clips on the front spring. They came that way quite a bit in '13.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 10:07 am:

I gather the thing on the back is a spare tire carrier. It looks like there are three demountable wheels and one non-demountable, all from the twenties, so I would guess the carrier probably dates the same.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins Winnipeg,Canada on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 11:00 am:

Hello Bob It looks like you have a 1915 or so mag light conversion They use a reflector{which is missing} in the head light rim and remove the burner as it will the reflector when the lamp is closed the switch is round and just right of the coil box. Our 1912 touring had this conversion done about 1915. Cheers Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins Winnipeg,Canada on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 11:02 am:

the burner will hit the reflector when the lamp is closed I'm still waking up Cheers Colin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 11:05 am:

The wood steering wheel does not appear to be painted. Any evidence of black paint on the back side?
Our 13 has body #F196910 stamped under the front seat. Engine (VIN) # 184994. Ours has a 1915 Calif. Reg. badge on the left side on the fire wall.
Was the body on our car made by Fisher? Anyone know when the body was made?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Colin Mavins Winnipeg,Canada on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 06:50 pm:

I thick the steering wheel was painted in the pictures you can see dark on the under side of the steering wheel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Thursday, May 12, 2016 - 11:19 pm:

The car is so original and I did not see any paint staining. Normal wear wound not have removed the paint. Would like to know for sure if the wood wheel was ever painted. Possibly it was a left over steering wheel for 1912 which would explain why there was no paint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 12:10 pm:

Look at some of the photos of the steering wheel. There appears to be black paint on the bottom side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 06:41 pm:

I will check the steering wheel but it is hard to see if it is black paint or dirt. One of these days maybe the car can be rolled out into the sun again where we can get a better look at the paint and details. I need to get some tires on it that hold air to be able to move it around better.

This car had reflectors with light bulbs in the headlights but they were just sitting there and held in by the door and lens so I pulled them out and found the glass reflector behind them but burners were gone.

Radiator said Ford on the tag and I will check the number along with the number on the body tag but it is 18xxxx from memory. Thanks to you guys I now know what made the electric lights work that someone added and I removed.

Looks like the thing on the firewall/dash could be for a clock from the posting by Dan Treace.

We are lucky to have Hap with all the good info he shares with us. I always learn something reading his posts because I have so much to learn. :-)

I see by the casting date on the engine (12-24-12) and the head (1-20-13) and the vin number that this is a Jan 1913 engine but can anyone narrow down when the car was built?

Thanks for all input and comments so far.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Friday, May 13, 2016 - 08:28 pm:

Fantastic pictures Bob! Thank you for posting them. I would have commented earlier; however, I just got released from jail for the crime of vandalizing my 1914 Touring serial number plate. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Friday, May 20, 2016 - 02:30 am:

Bob, on the Wilson bodies, you can also see the number of the body stamped into the top of the rear door wood.
Lift off the door top cap and gently fold the material back and there she is.
David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Friday, May 20, 2016 - 07:21 pm:

I was kind of looking at the rear door today thinking it had a number someplace but didn't know where to look. I also remembered to look at the steering wheel and it is painted black on the back side. Then I wiped off some oil on the oil cap and found no "Made in USA" on it but noticed some black paint on the side of the head. I will clean the engine with care and see if it has paint on it but that it will be a while before I find time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 08:08 pm:

Just thought I would share a few more pictures from a couple days ago when I pushed the car outside in the sun to wash it and take a few more shots with more light. I put some old tires on it that I had but only 3 hold air for a short time so I can roll this around myself.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 09:50 pm:

Beautiful piece of equipment, and so original.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 04:37 am:

Thank you again for sharing more pictures!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dare - Just a little South West . on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 04:46 am:

Fantastic pictures.
Great job Bob.
David.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Kramer,Woodstock,Ontario,Canada on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 05:01 pm:

Does anyone have an accessory tail light/license plate bracket,like the one that's on Bob's 1913,that they would sell ? I have the spare tire mount,but need the bracket.
Scott


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 01:57 pm:

I saw my first Monroe body this past week. It is a runabout, and restored, but it has all the original wood, with a nice 'M' before the body number under the seat.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Maciver on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 07:00 pm:

Thank you for the great photos , keep them coming with the work you are doing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Maciver on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 07:16 pm:

Thank you for the great photos , keep them coming with the work you are doing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob McDaniel(Indiana Trucks)Star City In on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 05:05 pm:



Last night I was cleaning the rear seat in the 13 touring and noticed the cover was just sitting on the springs so I took it off and found this little tag. Anyone else seen one of these?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ward Sherwood on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 12:41 am:

I haven't, but there must be others. That is the same Simmons that has been manufacturing mattress springs for well over a century. Ford must have had them make up some seat springs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 02:45 am:

One thing I noticed and nobody have commented on is, that it have a KW Master Vibrator Coil. This is an aftermarket add to overcome the bad coils (Heinze) Ford used at the time.
You may read more here: http://www.mtfca.com/coils/Coils.htm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson freeport ill. on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 09:02 am:

Bob our 16 has a tag on front seat spring also I could not read it but will look again. enjoying all your pictures!


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