On Saturday April 16 we purchased the 1912 Touring shown here. Ugly color so the car is now apart and in the paint shop. All the black parts are done and some of them are in place, and back on the chassis. The painter hopes to have the blue parts done this week then we'll put the body back in place. While working on the two rear doors I removed the upholstery to get it out of the way and found the name written in chalk along with "1911 touring". It appears it was written on the primer. The casting date on the engine is 11-22-11 and the car is titled as a '12 so I know it's a '12. I checked with Royce, from whom we bought the car and he isn't familiar with the name shown. Have any of you ever seen that on an early car before? Also, I'm curious as to what kind of wood is in the body. Is that oak or what? FYI: This afternoon I visited with Mike Hanson to see his 1912 Touring and my goal is to make our '12 look like his does. Black fenders, running boards and dark blue body. I'll show a before and after when the car is back together. Thanks.
My guess would be that Brinker was a previous owner who didn't know about the difference between model years and calendar years. It's very common for Model T's to be misidentified like that. Maybe that's who was responsible for the weird color.
Your 1912 has a body that was probably made in August or September, 1911.
Most of the time the car's body style identifies the "year" of the car.
Royce and I have been 'round and 'round on this. My car has a serial number earlier than your car. However, the body number is much later. And it has factory fore-doors.
My car was titled as a 1911 when it was new. I have the Washington State registration from 1935 (the year the first owner died) and the car is identified as 1911. So my car has been identified as a 1911 for the past 104 years. I see no reason to change it now.
Yes, my car (and yours) was built and sold in the 1912 fiscal year. However, it has characteristics of the 1911 models including step-side body, "two piece" dash, equal size windshield halves, long top straps with the loops in the fender irons, etc.
Pete Ratledge's car, Will Ravez's car, Chad Champlin's car, and Bob Richmon's car are all of the same era. They all refer to their cars as 1911 as well. Royce chose not to.
To me, a "1912" has the slab side body.
I do know of one step-body 1912 that has the one-piece dash, un-even windshield and straight top (no dip) fore-doors. It is very transitional and is clearly more 1912 than 1911.
Is Mike Hansen's 1912 have a step-side or a smooth side body?
Oh, and while I am on my soap box, every 1912 smooth-side car came from the factory WITH fore-doors and should be on the car! If they are not on the car it is because someone at one time thought he might fool some people to think the car is older than it really is.
: ^ )
Maybe at some shop while working on the doors some mechanic marked them with the customer and car so they wouldn't get mixed up with the other 18 projects he had spread apart on his work bench and as Steve said just mad a mistake on the year.
My guess is that the body builder signed his work just like any artist would do. Being in construction I have found notes on paper left in the walls and floors of building as well as messages written on the inside of walls by the previous builder. Some from very early homes built in the '20's and '30's. The most memorable notes were found in a Sears home that we completely rehabbed by me in the mid '90's. Not only did we find notes but discovered that every stud, joist, and rafter were numbered for assembly but also some of the fixtures that were still in the house. I could write a long story about this house but to get back on the subject I think the signature on the car is from one of the body builders so he could get paid for his work.
Was the door panel upholstery original?
Friend has a '23 touring, redo quite a few years ago. He was refitting a better door latch, and pulled the door panel cardboard.
On the inside of the door was signed name and date, we gathered it was from the fellow that re-upholstered the T.
Changed out a gas tank on a '64 'vette once owned, and on top of the new tank put my initials and date with magic marker. Bet years from now, some new owner will be doing a frame-off resto and find that....and wonder too
The body number on the car is stamped on the bottom of both doors and on the top of the front seat riser. B 15295 is the number shown. Is there a source for determining the date that number was stamped? Also, the rest of my first question----what kind of wood was used in making the body? Thanks
My 26 coupe had never been restored and had original interior. When I pulled it off the drivers door I found that "Carl" had signed the inside in yellow.
If that's a red oxide lacquer primer, as it looks to be (and also looks to have been sprayed), it wouldn't have existed at that time your car was built. As already mentioned above, it's probably a former owner's name and they marked his parts before throwing them on the shelf.
This was found under the door cover on my 13 when we were getting ready to paint. Sort of a "time capsule" of sorts
I used to attach a gold foil sticker to the under/back side of the dash on all the classic and custom cars I painted. It listed "CCW", the date and the paint code(s) used. It's pretty common for us "nitpickers" to identify our work.
I can also identify the starters and generators I've remanufactured. ;)
Back in a previous dealer shop life, the factory had warranty stickers in certain locations on a car. We had to take one of the stickers and apply it to the work order to show the work was done. It was also common to see job numbers or employee numbers inside panels.
Not to confuse the writing on your T with these, but as it turns out both our N (#3) and K touring ((#688) had original painted numbers on the seat backs.
On our N, when the original leather was removed, a hand painted #81 was brushed over the original black primer or undercoat. This gave us a wonderful example of the original color, as it had probably never been exposed to light since the car was painted and upholstered. My guess is this was body #81 of the first lot of supplied or painted for Ford. The car has engine number 3:
When we bought our K touring, I could not tell what color it was originally, so chose a dark blue because Royal Blue was one of the colors advertised for Model K. After beginning to paint the chassis, we had the body at the upholstery shop and when the front seat leather was removed, viola, the seat also had a hand painted original color number painted, #56. And the original color had been red:
Probably not related to your situation, however the owner before Royce did have an interesting story about the color of your car. I have wondered if you had heard it before?
By the way, I left both the N and K seats untouched, so someone in the future may pull off the upholstery and see the original primer and body colors.
I suspect Brinker is the guy who did the original body restoration and probably painted it piorange.
John, I thought I might add a little to this thread. I don't know if this adds anything to your question, but my 1911 Touring was restored in 1960 by Les Barnett. It's photo was on the cover of the June, 1960 issue of HCC of SC news letter "Coilbox Courier". The serial # is 85834 and the body # is B191816. It is currently display in our local museum. I am out of space at home as I an refreshing a 1914 touring and need the space. I have a right side and left side door for a 1911/12 touring and if anyone is interested in seeing photographs I will be glad to post them. Bob Petithomme
I should clarify the doors. They are both front doors.
My notes indicate that you have the only the passenger side fore-door for your car. Are these off a different car? The body number should be under the passenger fore-door.
Your car is 302 serial number later than mine. Probably two days apart. Your body number is 258 later than mine, which falls right in line. Are your front sill plated the oval checkerboard type just like the back seat?
Please post some photographs of the fore-doors. I'd sure like to see them.
: ^ )
The paint inside the doors on John Mays car is a salmon color from the restoration performed in the 1970's. Who ever wrote that did so many decades after the car was built.
Keith, I have both front doors. The best I can tell is that they are painted black. There is no # on the bottom of the driver side door and the # on the passenger side matches the body #B19186. Evidentaly the doors were removed douring the restoration The sill pates are oval.
Thanks for posting the pictures.
Your fore-doors are exactly the same as mine. The sill plates are also the same, except on mine, there is no sill plate on the driver's side. There never was and there are no holes in the sill where one was ever attached.
The striker plate for the passenger side on my car is a reproduction. Is there a striker plate on your car? If so, the next time you are over there, would you please take a photo of it? Thanks!
: ^ )
I don't remember that there is a striker plate on the passenger side. However, I will check it out the next time I go down to the museum.