26 Pickup Steering Column to firewall trouble

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: 26 Pickup Steering Column to firewall trouble
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Mueller on Wednesday, May 25, 2016 - 09:44 pm:

I have a 26 roadster pickup that i'm trying to assemble. The car was dismantled when I started working on it, so i'm not 100% sure how things go together.

My steering column flange will not reach to bolt up on the inside of the firewall, the column seems too short. Also, the firewall appears to have a depression where the flange would bolt up on the engine side. I'm starting to wonder if I have the wrong steering column, as I cannot get the flange to reach the firewall. In the pics below you can see how the flange is shorter than the firewall brackets. Do I have something wrong, or could I have an incorrect column?cowldepressionshort


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By keith g barrier Savannah Tn. on Wednesday, May 25, 2016 - 10:30 pm:

From what I can see, looks like your firewall has a big chunk cut out of it. KGB


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Dowell on Wednesday, May 25, 2016 - 11:36 pm:

Sean, the firewall is correct, there will be another bracket that covers the bottom of the column bracket. You are correct the column bolts from the inside of the car. The steering bracket to frame should be a T933 bracket. The photos you posted does not show that bracket. If you have the wrong bracket it may be pushed to far up the steering shift. The steering shaft should only stick out less than one inch through the bracket. See attached photos. Firewall Firewall


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Dowell on Wednesday, May 25, 2016 - 11:50 pm:

Sorry about the double photo I meant to send this one too. Also Sean what is the measurement from the bottom of the square column bracket to the quadrant. Also if your using frame bracket T932C it is for the closed car, causing a binding problem.Bracket to frame


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 11:41 am:

I don't know if you can see in this picture, but there are two holes in the firewall above the steering column and a bracket which bolts under it with two holes in it.

It appears that maybe someone who previously owned your body had perhaps installed a different steering column and cut out part of the firewall. All is not lost, you could weld in a piece of sheetmetal cut to the correct shape and drill two holes in it.

Many of our cars, especially the 26 roadsters have been used to make hot rods and the body was placed on a different chassis, or the original chassis was modified for use with different running gear. That is what probably happened to yours at some time in the past. If the body is otherwise in good condition, just weld in a piece. You can even smooth out the weld and after it is painted it will not be noticeable.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 11:42 am:

I don't know if you can see in this picture, but there are two holes in the firewall above the steering column and a bracket which bolts under it with two holes in it.

It appears that maybe someone who previously owned your body had perhaps installed a different steering column and cut out part of the firewall. All is not lost, you could weld in a piece of sheetmetal cut to the correct shape and drill two holes in it.

Many of our cars, especially the 26 roadsters have been used to make hot rods and the body was placed on a different chassis, or the original chassis was modified for use with different running gear. That is what probably happened to yours at some time in the past. If the body is otherwise in good condition, just weld in a piece. You can even smooth out the weld and after it is painted it will not be noticeable.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 12:13 pm:

Sean,

You've got some good advice on the fit-up and missing part/bracket. However, if it were mine, I'd weld those cracks around the mounting holes in the firewall before installing the column.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 12:19 pm:

Looks like the cowl opening is OK.

The square flange of the column goes on the inside of firewall. A bracket secures the front. And that bracket has a lower lip to hold portion of the upper floorboard too. You need that bracket for the open car body cowl.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 04:36 pm:

Sean,
I looked at your pictures again and what looked like a piece cut out of the firewall in the first picture was actually the flange at the base of the steering column. That part in your picture is in front of the firewall. It should actually be on the inside of the body toward the driver. The second picture shows the firewall as it should be.

Jerry is correct about welding up the cracks around the holes. Other than that, I think your firewall is usable as is.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Mueller on Thursday, May 26, 2016 - 10:16 pm:

Thanks for all the help guys. I went ahead and pulled the whole column out today, so I could get a good look at the bracket.

It is a T933 like it should be. It does have a crack, but I doubt thats causing the alignment problem.


I do have the lower bracket, its just not installed since the flange is in the way. I cant get it behind the firewall because the entire column seems too short. Look at this pic again, the flange isnt even reaching as far as the firewall brackets. This car is pretty original, I haven't seen any evidence of modifications.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 07:17 am:

Sean,

I’m 99.99% sure that the lower steering bracket that you have with the T933 as part of the casting is for the 1926-27 Fordor. That is the only car that used that bracket although it was also used on the car chassis when it was sold as a chassis only. [Ref Bruce’s Price List of Parts .] Note Gail Rodda's "Model T Ford Parts Identification Guide" Vol 1 page 29-30 also support that information -- with the exception that he did not have a photo of the 1926-27 Fordor and car chassis lower steering-post bracket.

Brian – I would like to know more how the bracket is fit to you car. I hope to start a thread this weekend asking for more information about the brackets with the T933 on them and what it originally came on. I.e. were there any undocumented exceptions?

Please see the following postings for documentation on that part. Note the T933 cast on the part is the bracket without the bushing. Then number changes factory number 997 when the bushing is installed and it was sold that way by the Ford dealers as part # 3539E.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/631567.html?1460294972

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/331880/388573.html

For why it is important to have the correct parts for the year & model of your stock T, please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/24786.html Note the steering bracket may be shimmed to help make things fit, but in general it is nice to have the correct parts. It takes less time to install the correct parts than the trial and fit the shims etc. And at least one steering column has been bent by people forcing things to fit.

Also recommend you confirm you have the correct firewall brackets. They look very similar from 1917 to 1927 but are slightly different for the 1917-1923 cars with the low firewall; the 1924-25 cars and I have heard that the 1926-27 are the same as the 1924-25 except they have a notch cut out to clear something and are installed on the opposite sides.

Please see:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/86722.html?1238773344

Somewhere there is an excellent photo showing the 1917-23 next to the 1924-27 style – but I can’t find it and I need to run to work. And I don’t know if you can or cannot use the earlier bracket on the later frame – but if you can, that would also make things not line up correctly.

And as mentioned in one or more of the recommended threads above the steering bracket goes under the frame and not on top of it.

Good luck with your car. I’m sure you will be able to sort it all out.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 09:17 am:

Here is Price Book pic of the steering frame brackets.

The '26-'27 roadster, touring, coupe and Tudor use Part # 3539-D That part has the number T-932C cast into the piece. That would be the correct frame bracket.



The Fordor and bare chassis have different firewall and use frame bracket Part # 3539E, plus the much larger in size Part #3515B, the bracket mounted to the dash to hold the front side of the steering column to the firewall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Mueller on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 09:05 pm:

So in this case would a pickup use the roadster part?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, May 27, 2016 - 11:34 pm:

Ford 26-27 metal pickup bed fits only to a runabout (roadster) body.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 04:54 pm:

Sean,

Yes, your 1926 pickup would use the same lower steering bracket as the roadster. That is also the same part for the 1926-27 roadster, touring, coupe, and tudor. As Dan Treace mentioned above it will have T-932C on the casting.

Below is the 1926-27 Touring, Runabout, Coupe, Tudor, with the casting Factory Number T932C. Note the Ford script is on the other side and that part and where they put the numbers varied some. But they were designed to work with the improved cars with the exception of the Fordor that had its own part with the T933 cast into the part and was shown previously in this thread. Photo from one of the "Vintage Fords" used by permission to promote our hobby and club. Jay Stutzman supplied the photo.



And a few photos of the same part from old e-bay postings:






And to illustrate that the number can be a little different but the part still works same part but a little bit different shape and number placement:





Note there are minor differences between the pickup body and roadster body. On page 409 of Bruce McCalley’s “Model T Ford” it shows the rear body panel of the standard 1926-27 Roadster. It has an embossed area on the rear panel and holes for the bolts that help attach the turtle deck. The pickup body does not have the embossed area and doesn’t have the holes according to that page. But the doors, windshield frame, dash etc. are the same.

Note for some reason the photos are not showing like they normally do in the Preview. So I will post it and look at it then.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 04:56 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Mueller on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 07:08 pm:

This is great info. Thanks so much. Guess i'm going shopping for a new bracket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 09:00 pm:

This has been running at the same time over in the Classifieds also about the Steering Brackets.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3487/642349.html?1464328165Thread


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 09:10 pm:

Sean,

You may want to contact Kim Dobbins. On a reply on the for sale forum at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3487/642349.html?1464328165 he posted,

+++++++++++
Sunday, May 22, 2016 - 03:14 pm:
Fred, I have a 26-27 bracket, T932C. Let me know if it's of use to you. Kim

++++++++
But in this case Fred was looking for the Fordor part and Kim has the Roadster, Tudor, Touring, Coupe part that you are looking for. Kim’s profile is at: http://www.mtfca.com/cgi-bin/discus/board-profile.cgi?action=view_profile&profil e=kimdobbins-users and you can send him a private message (PM) through the forum.


Note this is your 4th posting and I still haven’t figured out if you are just new to the forum – Welcome! Or are you also new to Model T’s? At the beginning of this post you said, “I have a 26 roadster pickup that i'm trying to assemble. The car was dismantled when I started working on it, so i'm not 100% sure how things go together.” Later you posted “This car is pretty original, I haven't seen any evidence of modifications.” But clearly the steering bracket is the Fordor version. If you are familiar with T’s that is great. But if you are new to T’s it would be good to let folks know. For example if you are new to T’s I would ask you if you know for sure that you have the correct 1926-27 frame (early 1926 was a little different but functioned the same.) rather than say a 1924-25 frame?

Also have you tried to locate the nearest Model T Ford club chapter? They are listed at: http://www.mtfca.com/clubpages/chapters.htm and also at: http://www.modelt.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=5&Itemid=15 There are 2 national clubs and many of us are members of both of them. And some chapters are members of both clubs. But the folks are great in both of them.

And once you figure out what the alignment issue was, please let us know. I will probably help someone else in the future.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Mueller on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 11:21 am:

Hal,

Yes, i'm new to the forums, and Model T cars, or antique cars in general. I've worked on newer cars before, and I must say the engineering on this old ford is fascinating.

The car belonged to my wife's grandmother who passed away 5 years ago. She purchased the car in the late 90's and worked on restoring it for several years. She left a ton of new parts behind, but nothing was ever put together. She was in the process of sandblasting and re-painting everything before re-assembly. Sadly she was never able to complete the project, and the car has sat in the corner of an old barn for the past 10-15 years.

With no experience on Model Ts, and having been absent for the disassembling, I'm planning to re-assemble the car without paint. This way I can learn how it goes together, and find all the missing pieces. The chassis was complete, and repainted. The engine looks great on the outside, and everyone related tells me it ran when she bought the car. If I can get the body bolted on, and the essentials connected (fuel & wiring) I hope to have the engine running in a few weeks. The steering column is just the first of many mysteries to solve.

From all the documentation that was left behind, and all the relatives that knew about the project. Both my wife's grandmother, and the previous owner had every intention to restore the car to original. I don't see any evidence of anyone cutting on the car either. So based on this, my best guess is that nobody tried to make a rat rod or anything of the sort. Its quite possible that the steering column was replaced after the body was removed, and the new column came with the wrong bracket. Which wouldn't be obvious until trying to install the body.

My Wife's Grandmother, or "Gail Davis" was a member of the Model T Ford Club. I actually found her membership info in a box of books and other model T paperwork. I'm still piecing it all together, but i'm sure i'll get joined up eventually.

Thanks again for all the help. I'll send Kim a message about the bracket.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Mueller on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 10:03 pm:

Thanks for all the help everyone. I got the T932C bracket installed and everything lined up much better. I had to shave down the wood block to get the firewall bracket to center up correctly. The column seems to be short still, and wouldn't work if it was just a few mm shorter, but for now its all bolted up tight, and the throttle and spark are moving correctly. I can say without a doubt the 26 Roadster Pickup uses a T932C bracket.






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