Okay, now what???

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Okay, now what???
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 04:20 pm:

I was changing the hoses on my 14s original engine. As I was bolting the outlet to the block, the bottom half of the hole in the block broke right off!! Along with half the threads!!! I had barely started to tighten the bolts when this happened.

Is this fixable? Weldable? JB Weld? What?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 04:23 pm:

You can replace the head or try to repair.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 04:31 pm:

I think I'd pull the head and take it, with the piece(s) that broke off, to a good welding shop. If they can put it back together and make it strong enough for duty, then fine. If not then start looking for a replacement head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 04:36 pm:

Gentlemen. I believe he is referring to the water inlet side of the engine block. And in this case I am not sure that it is repairable. I think it possibly is fixable, but having to weld cast iron like that will be hysterically expensive IF you can find someone skilled enough to do it correctly. Somewhere like J&M could possibly metal stitch it, maybe. But, I think your best bet is going to be a new-to-you block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 04:40 pm:

So which is it, Marty? Did the outlet section break off the head, or the inlet section break off the block?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Chaffin......Corona, CA on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 04:44 pm:

I hope it was not the inlet as that would be horrible. You could go the attempted repair route and it would be extremely expensive to replace the block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gene french on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 06:51 pm:

Marty:
as i read your question you are asking about the water inlet on the side of the motor block ...depending on how far this broke off ...you may be able to drill and tap a deeper hole and use a longer bolt to attach the inlet to the block ...you could also do a cosmetic repair of the broken section using a metal fill epoxy like JB Weld ...i would do this repair with the bolt inplace ...you will have to use a wax or cooking spray to prevent the epoxy from sticking to the bolt threads ...sand to match the old profile and hope for the best ...always an optimist...gene french


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gene french on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 06:58 pm:

Marty:
as i read your question you are asking about the bolt(s) that hold the water inlet on the side of the block ...depending on how badly the block section broke out , you may be able to drill deeper and re-tap deeper and use a longer bolt to attach the inlet ...you would also do a cosmetic repair of the block casting using a metal fill epoxy like JB Weld ...i would wax the bolt and install in broken section ...build up the origional profile with the epoxy ...remove bolt and sand filler to match the origional casting profile ...and hope for the best ...always an optimist...gene french


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gene french on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 07:00 pm:

sorry for the double posting ...thought i had sent the 1st. to the hintherland ...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 07:00 pm:

Gentleman, it is the water inlet on the side of the block. The boss or raised section (please remember that I am a mechanical imbecile) on the side of the block broke off from about the center of the bolts holes down to almost where the block curves under. I'll see if I can get some pics and post them. I'm just sick about this as I just finished redoing the valves and seats and putting new rings in. I took it around the block yesterday and it ran great! Now this. I should have collected stamps but, I guess, with either hobby you take a licking!

Thanks guys


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 07:20 pm:

Crap Marty. That's too bad. It's probably gonna be a costly fix no matter what. Very sorry to hear of your troubles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 07:32 pm:

Marty the method that Gene French mentioned will probably work. Posting some pictures would help determining how exactly to fix it.

J.B. weld and some of the other available epoxies can be molded and shaped and give surprisingly good results that can last a long time.

I would try that first before trying to pull the engine or weld the piece back in place. After all what have you got to lose but a little time.
You can consider this a learning experience and be the better for it!

Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Martin on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 07:39 pm:

This breakage situation is very scary at this part of the block as many members including my sons and myself hang the whole engine weight from this section of the block using these bolt holes while rebuilding an engine.
N.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Saturday, May 28, 2016 - 07:53 pm:

Good point Neil! Using an adapter plate at that point to carry the weight of the engine on an engine stand is fairly common.
Come to think of it that's the only time in a T engines life that much stress is put on that area.

If the repair that's been mentioned works Marty would have to remember not to use the side water inlet when haveing the engine out and working on the block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 07:03 pm:

Here are the pics of my "challenge".

Let me know what you think and thanks.

Hope you are having a great Holiday weekend and let's not forget why we honor this weekend.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 08:09 pm:

OOH ouch! And on a '14 block!

For what it is worth. One advantage to a J B Weld repair is that it is not destructive (usually). IF you decide later that you want the repair done welded right? The epoxy can be burned out, area cleaned and a proper repair done later.
The problem with a welding solution (even brazing which is technically not welding), is that the block needs to be heated enough that the main bearings will be ruined and have to be replaced (cost). If extreme care is not taken to balance the heating temperature ideally, you may also warp the block requiring milling of the top and bottom as well as boring of the cylinders (more cost and slight loss of dimension).

It does look like there may be an old repair there. Definitely old damage. I cannot quite tell from the angle in the photos, but it looks like the angle of the break may not be very deep. That could work out well for you.
Clean the area very well. See just how much is broken off. Also bottom tap the bolt holes to see how much is left.
It may be (Boy, I say MAY be) that you can have the surface ground down a bit and get enough good surface to mount the inlet piece on with only a minor cosmetic repair along the bottom, I would consider going into the side of the block itself NO MORE than 1/8 inch. Then, instead of using bolts like original, I would install studs or threaded rod into the remains of the bolt holes using J B Weld to give them a firm hold. These should be installed, and bolted straight using a water inlet piece and allowed full setting time under bolt tension, but not torqued tight (squeezes the epoxy out of the tension side of the threads for better better hold). After final cosmetic repairs, just use nuts to hold the water inlet on instead of bolts. The heads will be incorrect, but not a major offense.

If good care is taken with this procedure, it could maybe be done so that the inlet would still be removable (generally a good thing). It could even be possible to put a water pump on if you wanted to (That's a joke son!). If the damage is a little too severe for that, it may be necessary to use the inlet as part of the repair. If that is the case? It still may be worth the effort.


Another silly thought.
If there is sufficient bolt hole left? And you wanted to creatively repair this without much modification to the block? It may be possible to grind out just a tiny bit of the broken surfaces on the block. Then carefully cut and grind a water inlet to exactly fit the angles and offsets. Cut a thick paper gasket (for the now odd oval shape formed by the angle) and seal it using J B Weld with the paper gasket following the folds and the J B Weld filling any tiny gaps. If you can get a really good fit, even Permatex number 2 may work instead of epoxy.
A bit tricky to get right, but probably the least invasive repair overall. I would still use the studs trick with this.

Good luck! (I have patched up worse with amazing success, don't ask where)
Drive carefully and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 08:15 pm:

Marty, you can wait and see what other folks recommend but I'd go get some of the JB Weld Marineweld. Wire brush the pieces and block clean and then do some test fitting to clamp the pieces to the block. Figure out what c-clamps or whatever you can use to really squeeze the pieces to the block.

Then I'd slather all of it up really well on both the pieces and the block, clamp it, and let it set up 24 hours. Then I'd go back with around with another round of JB weld in the bolt holes and everywhere inside and outside that there are any kind of seams from the broken pieces. I'd finish up by gently and carefully tapping the holes and filing the surface smooth for the water inlet.

Paint it up and you're ready to reassemble. You don't need much tension from the bolts for the water inlet, just enough to hold it in place once your RTV gasket sets up. I think that will work and be ok.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 08:15 pm:

Oh, by the way, to one and any, or all.
I would never support a model T block by only these two bolt holes! For exactly this reason. It may work a hundred times. But the likelihood of a break like this is just too great. My '15 runabout's engine is hanging on an engine stand as we speak on both of those bolt holes as well as three along the pan edge.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 08:18 pm:

Looks like the crack has been there a while, likely a freeze crack.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 08:55 pm:

There is a 14 block in the classified. That might be a solution. Your block looks very corroded. I think it will be tough to salvage without ruining the Babbitt. You didn't break it it was already gone and you had the bad luck to discover it. The 14 block in the classified is not very pretty but maybe it's better than it seems once it's cleaned up. It's possible your crank might fit if the Babbitt in the block is still good. It's relatively close and the price is right.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 09:03 pm:

Marty, I agree with Ted. Better buy that '14 block in the classifieds toot sweet before someone else does!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Seth in Alabama on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 09:33 pm:

I do think that the '14 block in the classifieds is the best way to go. However, it is also expensive as I would be astounded if the babbitt is usable. Even if it if, that block needs a good bit of TLC to be ready to run, besides being $300 in the first place.

Just my worthless 2 cents, but try the JB Weld fix first, whether you do it like I suggested or like Wayne suggested, because that's the cheapest and if it works will have you right back on the road driving again in no time. If you try it and it doesn't work or you don't like the results, then buy that '14 block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 09:59 pm:

It looks like a old repair. It's still a huge pain in the neck and checkbook but I would do what Seth above said give the JB weld a shot. It might get you going again and then plan to fix another motor. Just my thoughts Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black SC/FL on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 10:00 pm:

I agree with Derek. Looks like it has been cracked and leaking for a while. My first attempt would be to clean really good, and try to install studs and use JB Weld to plug the cracks and make a mounting surface for the inlet. If that wasn't possible, before I scrapped the block, I'd clean the area and slather JB Weld generously to seal the cracks and permanently attach the inlet to the block. I've got one T that starting leaking last year and I discovered a previous owner's JB Weld repair in the block between 3 & 4 --and I've owned it for over 15 years. I've repaired a 12 in crack in a Simmons Super Power head twice with JB Weld, Each repair lasted about 10 years. Don't give up. A new block would be best, but, I'd sure experiment with the old one before I trashed it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 10:53 pm:

I saw Marty's block tonight. There MAY be enough depth left to the bolt holes to bottom tap them, install studs, and sandwich the broken off pieces in place along with lots of JBW. I have another idea if that can't work, but that's out first try. We're going to sandblast the area in order to know just what's left to work with. There's some old JB Weld and lots of rust in there now that has to go away first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 11:12 pm:

Take a look at Belzona 1121 product. The block needs to be prepped then the Belzona applied. The material has the same properties as cast iron and can be machined to restore the inlet area. I would have a machine shop familiar with Model T work give this a try. It would be easier and less expensive than replacing the block. http://www.belzona.com/en/products/1000/1121.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 11:59 pm:

what about making a 1/16" plate (spacer) between the block and the outlet with a water passage hole in it and two holes that line up with the existing bolt holes. Drill and tap a couple of small holes into the block above the orig bolt holes, screw the spacer to the block and file the screw heads flush with the spacer and then follow the other suggestions mentioned above. It would take some of the load off the two compromised original bolt holes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer --- Klaaswaal NL on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 03:21 am:

Marty: I had nearly the same on our 1912, See the pictures how I did it. I use 1/2 inch studs instead of 7/16
192R
194R
195R
196R
197R
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 08:06 am:

WOW!! You guys are great! Thanks for all the input (and caring!). As Jerry mentioned, it sounds like we are going to do some kind of combination of the repairs you all suggested. Anthonie, I kinda like the repair you did. We'll have to see.

Today, I start to tear the drivers side apart so we can get at the issue: take off the fender, horn, side lamp and steering column.

I just hope we can get this done within the month. I've got touring to do!!!!

I'll keep you posted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson freeport ill. on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 10:56 am:

Marty sorry thats a tough one.but I think you can make a fast fix with j-b or other epoxy I would try to strap or wire outlet on from headbolts thru valve opening after it sets give it a coat or two thru outlet with finger. I have seen some ugly repairs that held up ok on boat blocks. for clean up I have used starting fluid


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 11:14 am:

Anthonie's fix is excellent and I totally agree with the use of studs but he had more metal to work with and he did it right. What's the condition of the upper half of the outlet? Can a water outlet fitting be cut down to make a kind of flange or lower half of the opening and replace the missing metal? JB would surely seal between 2 pieces of metal. I would not be thinking about another block. You could end up with the same mess. I'm sure with a bit of ingenuity it can be repaired.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 11:22 am:

Once you have worked with Belzona Epoxy, you'll throw away your JB Weld - BUT, it's pricey !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 11:43 am:

That is really a sad situation. I will add a few opinions of my own, for what it's worth.

If the engine ran well before that happened, you might try the JB weld repair. But I wouldn't spend a lot of money on that block. If you were planning a rebuild, it would be better to try to find a better block.

If it were mine, I would also look for a good 14 block for future rebuild. Maybe even start rebuilding one now, to be able to "drop right in" when you need to do so.

I think the stud idea is a good one. In fact if there is not much left for threads, you might even try drilling farther into the block and threading the holes. Just do not drill into the cylinder walls. If you hit the water jacket, seal up the studs so that water doesn't leak around them. That way the pressure of the nuts would actually help to hold your repair in place. The only pressure you would have on it is enough to keep the coolant from leaking and the possible vibrations caused by the engine running and the car going over bumps.

If it were mine, I would also avoid long drives without going in a group just in case you have a problem, someone will be there to help you.

Unless you are using the car for show, it is not essential to have a 14 engine. Any year engine will fit in your car.

Hopefully, you will enjoy the car for a long time.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 02:46 pm:

Seeing a break like this makes me wonder what caused it in the first place.
Wayne Sheldon makes a good point about being CAREFUL when putting a block on a engine stand and not forgetting to brace it as much as we can
without putting so much stress on those 2 bolt holes in the side water outlet.

Another issue would be not cleaning out the bolt holes or using bolts that are to long and then tightening them up to the point of breaking out the flange!

This is a good learning experience about being careful with these old engines.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 03:14 pm:

Marty, look at the Belzona Epoxy website. I think you will find very helpful information there that should put your mind at ease. Steve Tomaso always seems to have the correct solutions!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Swanson on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 03:24 pm:

if you want to keep your original block, Crow cast welding in hudson wisconson can spray weld it and you can not tell its been repaired. the bad news is you will need a complete rebuild afterwards because the heat from his oven will make the cylinder bores move out of shape.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 05:44 pm:

Heart breaking when it broke off.
That little turkey has been seeping for awhile.
Great suggestions on the fix and WOW on you at being able to get at the repair area! Fender, horn, side light and column. Apparently, you ain't no mechanical imbecile!
Haha! I just realized something, this isn't the end of the world to you, it's just an "issue". That's cool.
JB is an excellent product but if wanting to try the Belzona, Rumford in Miamisburg is a dealer.
Like John said just above, go to their website and look for the "find a distributer".
Looking forward to your fix!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 02:54 pm:

Duey, thanks but just about anyone can loosen nuts and bolts. My mechanical aptitude is, shall we say, somewhat lacking when it comes to knowing how to put an engine together or anything involving specs, clearances, etc. However, I do pride myself on being an historian.

And you're right. This is a challenge to be met, not to get you down!

By the way, we've sandblasted the area and the pieces that fell off and now have a better look at it. Apparently, someone a long time ago, tried to braze the area and there was a lot of JB Weld in the area. That fix lasted for the five years I've owned the car and who knows how long before that.

We're going to try bottom tapping the holes in the block and some other fixes. We're also looking into that Belzona stuff.

By "we" and mean Jerry Van and I.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Anthonie Boer --- Klaaswaal NL on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 03:50 pm:

Marty ; I tapped new thread for the 7/16, and use Loctite.I hope this helps you
Toon


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 03:57 pm:

Thanks, Anthonie


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 05:23 pm:

It's fixed!!! Thanks to all of you and especially Jerry Van.

I ended up getting that Belzona stuff you guys recommended -- it better be good 'cause it ain't cheap!!!

We sandblasted the area on the block and the piece that broke off and made sure the area was operating room clean. The we chem cleaned the area and the piece. The bolt holes were cleaned out, too, and all the evidence from a prior fix. New studs were put in. Then, the Belzona stuff was mixed and, with the broken piece in place, it was smeared in a delicate and deliberate manner all over the area. No gasket was used, instead we put that black rubbery gasket sealer/maker on it.

We let it set overnight and then, per the Belzona directions, put heat to it with a space heater on low reaching a steady 120 degrees for a few hours. Then we let it set for a few more days.

Finally the elbow was carefully attached with the hose and tube in place and the nuts were put on.

I've run the engine and the repair through a couple of heating and cooling cycles for expansion and contraction tests and NO LEAKS!!! Yea!!!

Thanks to all of you and especially, Jerry Van with the help of Kevin Klein and Norm Bolz.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 05:57 pm:

Drive it! Keep an eye on it! And enjoy it!
W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 07:59 am:

Marty, glad you got it fixed in plenty good time for the tour. See you there!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 04:23 pm:

Nice!


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