Yea or Nay on wheel balance pellets

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Yea or Nay on wheel balance pellets
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Eaton on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 09:26 pm:

!913 commercial roadster is very rough and bumpy on the road I have rebuilt the front end.Tires and wheels are solid but not necessarily round. Would it help to balance the wheels with the pelletsroadster


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 09:54 pm:

John, what do you mean by "rough and bumpy"? Do you experience a vibration through the steering wheel, or is it more of a wobble thing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walt Berdan, Bellevue, WA on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 10:06 pm:

The dynabeads or other balancing won't help much at low speeds but certainly can help as you get moving in a speedster or other warmed up T. Then again, balancing can help and surely won't hurt.

For a typical T with demountable rims that rarely sees 40 MPH, I would start with checking for round and if a wheel is out of round I would re-position the rim on the wheel at 90 degree increments to find the least out of round condition. With roundness corrected as much as practical, I would go with stick on wheel weights. Start by finding the front wheel (without rim) that is closest to true and balanced. I'd then take the rims for the rear and balance them on that wheel using stick on weights on the inside of the clincher rim to balance the rim. Then work on the fronts with the stick on weights.

For typical T speeds, this level of balance should be sufficient. As always, other techniques and opinions may vary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mike_black SC/FL on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 10:14 pm:

John,
My T's that go fast have wire wheels and are balanced on a bubble balancer with stick-on weights. My T's with wooden demountable wheels get moved around and changed to get the "roundest" wheels with the least run-out on the front. If your ride is really bad, I'll bet balancing beads won't fix it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

I put them in the 21 inch wire wheels on my pickup project and when I was running it around the neighbor hood I could tell the difference after i put them in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 11:23 pm:

I put them in the tires on my '26 Sedan. My personal opinion is they're worthless for this application. Maybe they'll make a difference on a car that reaches speeds over 40 mph but for the cost I was very disappointed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Sunday, May 29, 2016 - 11:34 pm:

I personally think more information is needed before one can really evaluate what the problem is, and if the beads could actually help in this situation.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 12:16 am:

Your car ride depends on a few things. Do the leaf springs move freely or need grease. If your wheels are out of round radially no amount of balancing will correct this problem. If they are true then balancing will help only if they are out of balance.

I believe the best balancing is with the Dyna Beads or other brands unless you can get them on a spin balancer somewhere. I run them and several friends also. It seems like they start working right about 15 to 25 MPH and on up. The nice thing is that they always keep your wheels properly balanced as they wear.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 01:18 am:

I've used the Counteract brand from Snyder's in the wheels of my T's and I'm very pleased. No bouncing at any speed as long as the asphalt is reasonably smooth.
Balancing wouldn't help out of round, though, but a good start :-)
http://www.snydersantiqueauto.com/wheel-balancing-beads


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 06:44 am:

I have a 26 Touring with wire wheels and I use them. They do seem to make a difference, but that's just my inexpert opinion based on my evaluation of the vehicle's ride.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jason Given - St. Paul, MN on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 07:47 am:

From your description something else seems.to be the issue. I have beads in my wooden wheels, and at speed they made a big improvement.

I also put them in my truck, and they were useless. Not sure if I did not put enough in or what. I finally broke the beads and removed them. But in the T they work great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Eaton on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 08:59 am:

"John Noonan; what do you mean by "rough and bumpy"? Do you experience a vibration through the steering wheel, or is it more of a wobble thing?" John ,rebuilding seems to have removed most of the shimmy and shake but there is still an up and down bumping motion


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 10:31 am:

Nice to see some of you folks admitting that at low speeds the beads don't do a thing because they can't distribute themselves. They, in fact, might increase vibrations at low speeds because of this. I'm guessing by the look of his car that John isn't going for any speed records so his problem needs looking into as in tire & running gear condition.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 01:12 pm:

On the contrary, Charlie B - they do distribute at the same time uneven weight starts to be an issue - and very smooth, so there's absolutely no base in thinking they could make anything worse - and I'd say they can help some also at slow T speeds like 20-30 mph.

Here's a demo video: https://youtu.be/eq263AYgyYg

The only issue is the slow procedure pouring them into the tubes.. I had to drill through the valve stems with a 4mm drill to make pouring a little faster - still had to vibrate or knock on the stem constantly until all 6 Oz went in each wood wheel tube (and 4 Oz for each wire wheel)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach, CA on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 02:08 pm:

I use Dynabeads in all of my cars. The main issue with them is that people don't buy enough of them. Having not enough weight in beads to correct the balance makes for a poor spokes person. All big trucks on our highways use beads to balance their wheel assemblies. They throw a sack of them in at the time a tire is mounted and the sack quickly wears out and the beads then balance the wheels. The sack pulverizes and helps in the balance too.

To check for roundness you jack up your vehicle and rotate a front tire and if it stops at the same place every time you need to balance that wheel.

Liquid could be used and is much cheaper but could boil at speed and might ruin the valve stem.

You should then get a marker set so that it just touches the road surface of the tire and rotate the tire to see if it is out of round. Then set the marker at the rim and rotate again to see if the rim is round.

A round rim with an out of round tire simply needs to have the air let out of the tire and then take a dead blow hammer and take a few hits at the high place to better set the tire on the rim. Then check for roundness and adjust any out of round with the hammer. Then re-inflate. An under inflated tire will allow the tire bead to slip in or out on the rim when parked and that tire on that true wheel is then out of round and will bounce and a solid balance weight will not correct the bounce.

An out of round wheel needs professional attention. Don't monkey around with safety!

When rotating a true round wheel on a jacked up car you should check to see how much weight it takes to balance the whole assembly. I like to wrap solder around the lightest spoke until the wheel stops randomly. I then weigh the solder and write it down. I then do this with the other front wheel and see how much weight it takes to balance that one. Sports cars with wire wheels have usually had them balanced by wrapping solder around the spokes.

Here is a picture of a 26-27 wheel using solder to balance it from this MTFCA website. The solder stays where it is and is only in balance once but beads keep correcting all of the time and are always in balance at speed.



solder




The back end is then jacked up on one side at a time because you never lift the car at the differential because it is weak and will bend. Place a marking stick at the rim and rotate the wheel to check roundness. Then place the marker at the road surface of the tire and rotate it to check for roundness.

If the rims are round but the tire is not, simply deflate and bounce a dead blow hammer at the highest place to re-set the tire on the rim.

If you can't re-set any tire you can go to a quality tire station and they will put each wheel assembly on a lathe and make the tire round by trimming off rubber. Any such tire was either incorrectly mounted or incorrectly made in my honest opinion. Some people true up tires that were incorrectly mounted and those tires then are out of round when a tube is replaced after a flat is fixed on that tire.

It should be noted that the tire must be correctly centered on the rim and there are tolerances in a tire that allow it to be mounted off of a true center.

We all know about centrifugal force but some of us don't know about Centripetal force. Centripetal force tries to balance a rotating mass by relocating the true center of the mass so the wheel assembly actually acts as a cam rather than a true round cylinder disk. That is why an out of balance tire bounces as it rotates. By using Dynabeads the beads go to the lightest places in order to make the rotating mass happy with the actual center of the axle or front spindle. They do this every time you start up so your wheels stay in balance even though you might lose a small chunk of rubber some day. Some say you must go fast to get the beads to find their proper location but they do this at the relatively low speeds that a typical Model T is driven.

External weights are ugly and show no class. When a wheel is professionally balanced they only place weights in two or three places. Some use clip on weights and some use glue on weights which are in my honest opinion, rather unsightly. Dynabeads find all of the light places and you get a very smooth ride. Again I find out how much weight it takes to balance the wheels and then add two more ounces of beads. Because you can't guess the weight of the rear wheels you should add four ounces to them.

Perhaps Michael Garrison didn't like his Dynabeads because he either didn't add enough beads to actually balance his wheels or his wheels were not truly round or teach tire not correctly seated on rims that were true in my honest opinion.

And remember the old saying "Blessed are they who travel in circles for they shall be known as wheels" ;~)



Frank




We also play with steam, it keeps us balanced and always under pressure!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Monday, May 30, 2016 - 07:12 pm:

Or, maybe they're a gimmick that don't work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Eaton on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 08:30 am:

Thanks everyone! A lot of good suggestions. I feel confident I can use your suggestions to smooth it out and I believe I will also order a set of beads . The info will all be helpful. As you can see by the picture the car is not totally finished yet and the plan for this year is to have it finished enough for museum visitors to take Photos or Selfies this summer. I have until next year to get it comfortable, correct and safe for drives and tours. Regards, John


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 09:09 am:

Let me explain my unbelieving mind set: Centuries ago, as a new kid in the business, I was trying to balance a tire on a dynamic balancer. Ever time I ran it I got different readings and adding weights where it told me to only made it worse. The head mechanic said "break it down". Inside we found the tire was deteriorating and there was about a cup full of rubber beads that had flaked off and became round by rolling around in the tire and picking up more loose bits. Balanced perfectly after re-assembly. Had another similar situation that involved liquid inside a tire. Probably from one of those Fix A Flat aerisol cans. Neither of these tires could be dynamically balanced with loose stuff in them which would have to act exactly as dyna beads would. So why would adding something to the inside of a tire not work in one case and work in another? It would take a lot of explaining to convince me that these beads work on any thing other than your mind and your wallet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 09:50 am:

Michael G: :-)

Charlie B: The problem why the dynabeads or other things inside a tire like rubber or fluid won't show their potential to balance when on a fixed axle balancing machine is explained in the comments to the Youtube video I linked above.
Here's one citation: "The problem with trying to test Dynabeads on a 'modern' electronic spin balancer machine is that the wheel is on a rigidly mounted axis with strain gauges attached to it to measure bending stresses.
It is not allowed to move freely to let the beads redistribute naturally as they would in a wheel free to vibrate naturally as when mounted on a vehicle.
The beads need the initial small wobble of the wheel to find the correct balance point. Then they stay at that point and do not move."

And the reason why they aren't more widely used in car tires is that modern cars has wide tires that may need dynamic balancing from side to side, while the dynabeads works best for narrow tires like motorcycles or our really old cars.

You're free to keep on being sceptical, though a personal trial might be the only thing that might convince you :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 09:56 am:

I'm skeptical myself, but I bought them and will get them installed real soon. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach, CA on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 10:46 am:

Charlie B. As I stated in my post above, the tire filled with beads is out of balance at rest and is only in balance while rotating. When you were attempting to balance your tire with the rubber balls inside it was an impossible task. Had you driven the car the rubber balls would have balanced it but not as well as the tiny beads do.

Front load washing machines have a ring much like a hula hoop which is filled with a liquid and little balls. The ring surrounds the rotating drum. The clothes in the washing machine will be out of balance on the spin cycle and the balls will go to the light places like the Dynabeads do in a tire. The liquid keeps the balls quiet as they bang into each other or else they would make a clicking noise in the laundry room. Every washing machine uses little balls suspended in a liquid to self balance themselves.

If you want a test simply load the beads in a tire and mount it on a balancer and rotate it at high speed. The result will be that it is in perfect balance. If you use one of those balancers that only turn at a low r.p.m. it will show random results because it is not rotating fast enough. In order for the beads to balance the tire the outside of the tire must be going at least 20 miles an hour.

The millions of cross country trucks use them and they are a successful product.

Look up centripetal force in the dictionary or on the internet and you will find the force that is necessary to keep an object moving in a curved path and that is directed inward toward the center of rotation. A string on the end of which a stone is whirled about exerts centripetal force on the stone.

We all know about centrifugal force but some of us don't know about Centripetal force. Centripetal force tries to balance a rotating mass by relocating the true center of the mass so the wheel assembly actually acts as a cam rather than a true round cylinder disk. That is why an out of balance tire bounces as it rotates. By using Dynabeads the beads go to the lightest places in order to make the rotating mass happy with the actual center of the axle or front spindle. They do this every time you start up so your wheels stay in balance even though you might lose a small chunk of rubber some day. Some say you must go fast to get the beads to find their proper location but they do this at the relatively low speeds that a typical Model T is driven. Oh yes and washing machines too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 11:00 am:

Try something simple first.

What are you running for tire pressure? Try 55 PSI or 60 PSI.

I have a '17 roadster and anything above 60 PSI in 30x 3.5 tires makes for an uncomfortable ride - it bounces down the road like a baby buggy.

My dad has owned a '17 touring for 65 years. He usually inflates to 55 PSI front and rear but never over 60 psi.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach, CA on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 01:04 pm:

Erik, a wheel out of round or out of balance will thump at any tire pressure at speed. A tube with a rubber stem must be inflated to at least 55 pounds or else it will slip on the rim and break the stem off.

If your car bounces with 55 pounds of pressure your wheel is either out of round or out of balance.

I had my wheels powder coated and must keep the tires inflated to at least 60 pounds or else they will slip on the rim because powder coating is very slick.

I run our Buffalo wire wheels at 65 pounds and it gives a smooth ride at 70 and above.

Check your rims by setting up a stick at the rim while the car is jacked up and rotate the wheel. If the rim does not run true but is rather like a cam, even a little bit out of round you are going to bounce.

If the rim is true but the tire is not, simply deflate the tube and smack the high spot with a mallet to better seat the tire on the rim. Then rotate the tire again to check for roundness.

Look carefully at the place where the tire seats on the rim and measure the distance from the rim to a constant mold mark place on the tire to check for roundness by eye before you deflate and smack with a mallet.





22


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 01:45 pm:

"Bouncing down the road" was an exaggeration.

I live in Minneapolis where winter wreaks havoc with asphalt so some of the streets can be pretty rough. I don't have the luxury of driving on smooth, Los Angeles County and Orange County streets and roads.

Model Ts are lightweight cars. Model T roadsters are very lightweight cars.

In my opinion, there's no reason to have over-inflated, rock hard clinchers on a Model T, especially a roadster . Makes for an uncomfortable ride on rough patches and, frankly, it's hard on the car. For example, I'd rather cross railroad tracks with 55 or 60 PSI in the tires than 65 or 70 PSI.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter McIntyre on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 03:45 pm:

I have balance beads in all my cars from 60 mph 36x41/2 to 1cylinder
30 x3 which tops out at 23 mph and they really work.Consider a 15 inch length of string with a 3/8 nut tied to the end ,now spin around and how much force is there. At 23 mph they have smoothed out the ride.My model t at 35 is vibration free. They do work try them!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bills Auto Works on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 06:58 pm:

I have used the Counteract Balance beads in both of my transport trucks as well as both of my trailers (open & enclosed) with great success. Very smooth ride & we are talking about an average of 15k miles per month, so I would not use something that doesn't work!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 09:29 am:

So I guess we have another item to add to the list of "Don't ask" subjects. So far the list I know of is:

Oil grade
Cotton vs. Kevlar vs. Wood bands
Water pumps
E-timers
Spark plugs
French fries vs. tater tots

I'm sure there are others, but that's all I can remember.

Anyway, back to the subject at hand. I've never met anybody who uses the balance beads, so I'm wondering how they get them inside the tube. As small as a valve stem is, I bet it would be a very labor-intensive process. Anybody able to shed some light on the subject?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis K Anderson on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 10:31 am:

Vendors supply a plastic tube that fits on the valve stem. I spent 20 min. per tube on mine.been using them now over 2 years. They work for me.
Dennis Anderson
Maryville Tn


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 12:38 pm:

Dynabeads have worked out just fine for me and I recommend them. _They won't fix wheel wobble, of course and sometimes when my wheel wobble gets synchronized between the rear wheels, I get a little tail-wagging shilly-shally until I make enough turns in one direction to de-sync the rear wheels. _It's kinda funny, actually. _My wobble is maybe 3/16" on each wheel; within normal limits, I think.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank Harris from Long Beach, CA on Wednesday, June 01, 2016 - 01:28 pm:

Jared, I drill out the inside of rubber valve stems as Roger Karlsson from Sweden stated above in his post. Tubes with metal valve stems do not require drilling.

I also get a longer piece of plastic hose, about two feet is just right. I place the hose over the valve stem and pour some beads through the funnel into the tube about 3/4ths full. Then I set my air compressor pressure at about three pounds and fit a nozzle into the tube. I rotate the wheel so that the valve stem is almost horizontal but is just below the equator.

I use very short pops of air and those little beads march right in to the tube in a few seconds. The trick is to blow them up hill and let a few go in an then let the rest of them roll back down to the nozzle. I can do all five wheels in under fifteen minutes and oh yes I use more beads than necessary because you can pick up mud and rocks and they will really pull things out of kilter. (wow, what a run on sentence that was). Never never never use more than three pounds of air pressure or else you will blow the hose off and spray hose expensive little beads all over the place. Please don't ask me how I know that.

Also, if you put metal valve stem covers over your rubber stems and that will throw things off too.


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