Mounting Virgin 1915 Fenders Assistance Requested.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Mounting Virgin 1915 Fenders Assistance Requested.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 03:19 pm:

If you thought mounting virgins was a different thread, then I apologize.
Got my wood dash and hood former and mounting brackets figured out with your help.
Now I've got brand new repo 1915 fenders to install. I call them virgins because no holes have been drilled in them.
I've got my running boards on and the fitment is close, time to tweek. My fender irons are off as expected, bent close up and down, but both are too far towards the rear and my fender curves hit the wood dash before the fender bracket engages the irons.
So, sequence question.
Do I line up my running boards to front fender and clamp and then line up the flange on the fender splash shield to the frame and then clamp and then drill? Bending fender iron to fit the bracket slots and eyebolt last?

If so, any suggestions on where the fender flange to frame should line up. It seems like my front fender rear curve should almost touch the the wood dash and then clamp and drill. Or, are they more forward than that. I've got about 8 holes in my frame between the raddiator mounting hole to the forward dash bracket hole, and my fender mounting hardware kit does not contain 16 nuts and bolts, so I know I don't use all the holes.

Any direction appreciated. I'm not see that kind of detail photo in the manual. I'm presuming I can't be too wrong as long as both sides are the same. But it doesn't take any more time to do it right than do it over.

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 04:02 pm:

Found my hood shelves and pins and lined them up. Feels like first and last hole between radiator mounting hole and dash mounting bracket get drilled through the fender flange for the hood pins and springs. Then a hole about 1 1/2" further in from each is a recess in the shelf for the fender mounting folts. I have four with castle nuts in my kit.
May I presume all the other holes between these foru on my frame and NOT drilled through the fender mounting flange?

And would a "split the difference" alignment between the first two hood spring pin holes be a good starting point for fender alighment?

Were the holes drilled in the fender mounting flange a pretty exact fit for the bolt , or were there some adjustment slop in the hole size so the fender could be tweeked a little without removing the bolts?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 07:46 pm:

Well, I don't know if I'm coming up with more questions, or answering some of my own, but now it's the fender and hood shelf mounting hardware.
Looks like the hood clip and spring go into one hole and the next hole goes through the top and bottom of the frame, so I presume this is the long carriage hood shelf bot and the same at the other end. Have no idea what the other holes are for as the wood hood shlf will cover them.

But, I've got this front fender bracket to frame mounting hardware set that is 18 pieces with bolts, castle nuts, and cotter pins, 6 sets. I'm not seeing where these would go, unless these are designed to replace the rivets that hold the front fender IRONS (not brackets) on this 1915. The catalogue shows this mounting hardware kit for all years.

Am I close? the only two bolts that hold the fender to the frame are the two long cariage bolts that fo through the hood shelf? The fender bolts to the running board and to the iron with the eyebolt.

Will this get me started?

If I'm overwhelming with all the questions, just pick one or two and let me know I'm not alone.

Thanks in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 08:41 pm:

Robert, I'm not close to my '16 to look at it, and right now I can't walk (plantar facietis, I think--and it better go away soon as Auburn swap is Sunday!)But I do know from experience that you need to have the radiator mounting holes lined up across the frame first! Front cross members often bow outward. The front fender irons (from memory) have three bolts each side, two on side, one on bottom, and the tops should be level across them. Have your running boards mounted, and the wood blocks between them and the fenders, then you should be able to get a good for and aft positioning of the fenders. I think there's one or two carriage bolts that hold the fender on before you do the sills and the hood latches. If you fenders have no holes to clear the hood latches, you'll have to add them! Reproduction fenders often take a bit of 'tweaking' to get them to fit. You really need a picture of an original fender's mounting & clearance holes for this project!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 08:54 pm:

I'm going to lay my hands on a 17 this week and should get some rough ideas of how stuff lines up, allowing of course for some year to year slight differences.

If the hood pins and springs have their own holes and my hood shelves are drilled for them and for the carriage bolts that mount them to the frame, those should be "givens".

Think I'll call Mac's and find out what their fender mounting bracket to frame hardware kit part number 64-55572 is for and that might help me as well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Tuesday, May 31, 2016 - 09:17 pm:

Why don't you call Rootlieb and kick it around with them. They made the fenders and they are hand made so there will be some variations and will take some hand fitting. I also think Langs could give you better advice and better service on your parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 06:04 pm:

Just to follow up now that I'm back from seeing a 17 T and it's front fenders.
For my 15, it seems like the front of the fender mounting flange to the frame lines up with the front edge of the frame and a hole is drilled that the radiator mounting hardware comes through. Once that happends, the rest is lined up with the holes in the frame. One large hole for the headlgiht wiring bushing and two holes for the carriage bolts that mount the hood shelf to the frame and two holes for the hood pins and springs to come thorugh.
The hardware kit that i have is to mount the front fender irons to the frame without rivets. Thre e bolts and castle nuts on each iron with the lower center one having the nut on the outside of the fram for there is room for the radiator hardware.
I think I got it figured out. Nothing like laying hands on a 'real" one to help me with mine. Brought home some fender parts, luggage rack, steering wheel, brake rods and bracket and some interesting photos of some rear ends that I will need help in ID'ng.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 07:14 pm:

David...this is a bit O.T. but re your plantar facietis, try these shoe inserts...you can get 'em online. When I had that, I bought these and eventually it went away. First time took a bit less than a year, then two years later got it again but pretty severely and it did take almost two years, but now I'm pain free. Still wearing the "gizmos". Once on the site, you'll find 'em specific to your need. www.heelthatpain.com

Good luck!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter Kable - Kiama NSW OZ on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 07:56 pm:

Robert,

If I read what you have said correctly, you are saying that you need to drill a hole in the guards so the bolt for the radiator can go through it as well.

On my 1915 guards the radiator when mounted is in front of the inner panel the front edge on the panel on top of the chassis rail sits immediately behind the radiator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By brass car guy on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 11:21 am:

Here is a trick I have used to get the front fenders flat and level front side to side. I use an 8' fluorescent tube with a level taped on it.

This is a perfect straight edge wide enough to go from side to side and makes getting the fenders even on both sides much easier. These adjustments must be made with the chassis leveled. The adjustments are made by bending the fender support brackets, not the actual fenders.

Remember, the fender lines are the 1st thing one see's as they walk up to your car.

just sayin'

brasscarguy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 04:30 pm:

Robert

This original photo of a 1915 shows some detail for you. Ignore the 'machinery' on the front as this photo was taken for install of an early pneumatic starter.

Note the fender iron in the foreground, the two upper bolts are inside the frame, the castle nuts outside.

The third bolt under the frame has its bolt head inside the frame, the castle nut under the frame. That leaves room for the radiator bolts, and these early T's used a leather pad for the radiator cushion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 05:34 pm:

Thanks for al the clarification. I guess a slight difference from the 15 to the 17 I laid my hands on. It had the first hole going under the radiator tab and going backward from threre.
But my repo 15 fender is cut back slightly so I would be too far forward if I duplicated that and I'd be short on the dash end.
So with the c clarification from a previous poster, the fender ledge starts immediately behind the radiator mount and goes from there.
And I would have installed two fender iron bolts with the castle nuts inside the frame and the lower one reversed, but it makes perfect sense to have all the bolt heads inside so as to allow as much room as possible for the radiator mounting hardware.

I'll take some photos as I start this process and maybe help pay it forward for the next guy.

TO THE DRIVEWAY!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 11:25 pm:

OK, here are some pics of the front of my '15 with low-mileage original fenders. Note that the two bolts holding the fender to the frame may not be going through the right holes; they were just put on to keep them out of the way! the two hole behind the fender are for the firewall braces. Also a picture of the underside area of the fender brace.






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 12:23 am:

I've never done this but maybe if you snugged up the front to the fender irons so they can still move a bit then align the part of the fender to the frame and clamp them there with some vise grips and do the same to the running boards and get that fitted and when you get it where you like it mark from underneath of the frame and from the top on the running boards boards with a paint marker. Then take it off and you will have it marked where to drill the holes? Just an idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 09:49 am:

The fender irons seem to be the "weak link" in this process. I'm planning on clamping to my running b oards and wood block and then C clamping the fender ledge to the frame and line up and split the holes in my frame with the front and back of the fender ledge. Then, remove my fender irons and heat them and bend them until the fit the bracket on the fender and using a long level across the two fenders to level them up to each other. Once I've got everything clamped and fitted in place, I'll use a felt pen and mark the fender ledge from underneath the frame as suggested. Remove and drill and then reinstall with the wooden hood shelves and tweek from there.
That's the game plan, anyway.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 09:51 am:

Mounting fenders that haven't been drilled can be challenging. Keep at it and you will get it sooner or later. If you have originals to compare that would help. Don't forget to use the proper wooden blocks between the running boards, and the front and rear fenders. They are 1/2 thick on '13 & '14s, and I assume they would be the same for a '15.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 01:42 pm:

Robert, It just occurred to me that I could measure the holes in my fender, if that would help you. Note that the lip of the fender on the frame clears the radiator and the holes for the firewall bracket, and that the splash apron's front edge does not actually touch the fender. These are fairly low-mileage fendders, the black specks you see are the original paint.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Brough on Thursday, June 16, 2016 - 12:26 pm:

Think I've got it. Installed my radiator loosely and put in two small bolts to hold it in place, installed running boards and lined them up and installed fender irons to the frame. I laid my ned fender on the frame and wood clamped the rear lip to the running board front edge with a wood block spacer. I centered the virgin fender flange and centered it between the radiator mounting tab and the firewall bracket. It looks like there are two small holes fright at the front edge where the fender flange sits over the frame that are not used for the fender, even though they are coavered up by the fender flange. Perhaps a headlight wiring access hole?
The second hole in line from the radiator and firewall bracket are the hood pins springs holes, so I drilled by fender a little larger than those holes to allow ease of installation and give me some wiggle room for final fit.
The third holed in from the bracket and radiator has a aligned hole in the bottom of the frame as well, so I marked and drilled those two holes in my fender flange and used a long carriage bolt to go through the wooden hood shelf, the fender flange, the top of the frame rail and the bottom of the frame rail and secured with lock washer and nut.
Everything looks good and my front fender irons are a little out of position to fit the fender bracket just right, so I'll remove them and heat them up and tweek them in a vice and keep working them until the fit the fender brackets and frame just right and level up the two fenders to each other and then I.

I've marked and drilled the rear of the front fender lip and installed with the correct hardwared to the wood block and the running board.

Then I'll install my radiator support rod and hood and see whre I am on that fit.

Have to install and screw in the hood former prior to that, as no holes are in my reop wood firewall.

It's coming, slowly but surely. And, I haven't cut myself yet!


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