Losing my @$$ building open valve engine

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Losing my @$$ building open valve engine
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 03:01 am:

So I'm building this 1910 engine. It has been a long term project, the owner has spent a fortune on it. The block was bought for a song as a doorstop from an individual who knows what it was. The block was salvaged with donor parts by Lock N Stitch so beautifully that it is a shame to paint it. I came midway into the project and did the cylinder and valve work. Then I built up the engine. So far so good. Then it came time to build the transmission, also no problem. Using my KRW magneto gap gauge I went to set up the magneto gap. What a nightmare. Large pieces of the block were shattered away on the right rear corner, including the rear cam bushing bore area. That required line boring the rear cam bushing after the block was pieced back together. OK, so now after all this trauma, the mag coil mount surface is not perfectly square with the crank. It took some creative shimming of the mag coil to set up the mag gap, many attempts over four hours to get it right. So then I went to put the front timing cover on. Another headache. It is a reproduction cover for the early two piece timer. It needed work to clear the timing gears and center on the crank and cam. Also supplied was a repop two piece timer. Man, I can't believe how much more complicated and elegant this brass beauty is than the usual steel roller timer we know and love. Bottom line is, I spent four hours massaging the parts to work together. While it is an honor to work on something like this, I do better working on other things like later model T's.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warwick Landy Traralgon Australia on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 05:14 am:

Erik, Some of your thoughts confirm my thinking about the early T's. They are lovely to look at and display but as cars to tour in they are not so good. In service, the 2 piece timer is terrible to perform maintenance on while on the road. The open valves loved to spread oil everywhere! A number of the other early production parts did not last long into production because the design was floored. Well done on your perseverance with the project. Be sure to post pictures of the completed job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adrian Whiteman, New Zealand on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 05:31 am:

Hi Erik, sounds pretty much 'par for the course' in bring these old engines back to life.

Regarding open valves, a mod is to install a felt seal around each valve stem works well, and cuts down oil leakage - but stems must be oiled each day twice a day to keep them wet.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 09:20 am:

There is actually no leakage around the valve stems - there is no oil there. You must oil the valve stems every tank of gas or they will stick.

The pushrods do not leak much oil if the valve guides are properly reamed. You will need to wipe the engine pan and carburetor / intake off after every drive.

It sounds like Erik's main issues are with the reproduction front plate and the repairs performed. I hope the repairs are going to hold up long term.

The two piece timers, like any other roller timer, last a long time and perform well if packed with grease.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Gould, Folsom, CA on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 09:44 am:

Some, if not most, of the early timing gears covers reproduced over the years have had issues. I have seen misalignment of the crescent over the crank shaft. Those produced recently, but no longer available, have been OK.
Personally I love the two piece timers. The case is centered on the cam because it rides on the cam nut. It is a well engineering piece. Too bad no one is reproducing them today.

I find that oil leakage from the lifters is minimal if you install new bronze guides. Sticking valves can be remedied by giving them more clearance in the guides.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 03:00 pm:

Royce is correct, the issues were reproduction parts and trauma suffered by the block in the past. All is well, it just takes time to make some corrections. As for the leaks, open valve engines we have built before this one had lifter guides machined for an o-ring inside the top end of the bore so they do not leak there at all. This one does not, but clearance is good, so it will just require wiping down after a drive. Thanks guys for the heads up on keeping the valves lubed, makes perfect sense. I, too, am impressed by the two piece timer and its inherent centering over the camshaft. It just seems like servicing it on the car will be a headache. Also it requires the timing pin hole be drilled all the way through the cam. There are two problems with this. One, of course, is that it is possible to put the timer roller on out of phase with expected results. Second, the Stipe 250 cam is not drilled through. So I altered the whole setup to alleviate these problems. More time spent, but worth it for the well being of the engine and anyone cranking it. Royce, you recommend packing the timer with grease? The tag that came with it says keep oiled with 10W oil. What grease would be the best? Thanks for the input.
Erik


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 06:51 pm:

Erik,

Yes I have had good results with the early timer packed with red grease, just like the later ones. One thing to watch for, Howard Cascia built a batch of rollers with a very stiff spring that causes rapid wear. Not sure if they were the last ones built or the first ones. The spring tension does not have to be super stiff to work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phil Mino, near Porterville on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 07:16 pm:

Royce - scroll down to page 10. I believe you may find this article of interest.

Article about Howard Caccia


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Neil Martin on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 07:23 pm:

E.B. in A Ca
In Australia, Castrol marketed a fluid grease called EPLO. It was the only lube (that I could find,30 years ago) that would not track and keep lubricated the bevel gears in high speed angle grinders.
I would think that a roller would track in hard grease in time. I personally use engine oil. A squirt before a run, a squirt at morning tea and a squirt at lunch time.
Will make you lift the bonnet and allow your friends to view your open valves.
N.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 08:40 pm:

Forty years ago, it was said by many that Lubriplate (a white oil based grease designed to stick onto open mechanisms) was the only way to go. I have used it, as have many people I know with great success. But they stopped marketing it over 20 years ago. Since then, I have tried a white grease sold by Sta-Lube which also seemed to work quite well. However, that one also seems to have disappeared from the markets, at least around here, about 10 years ago.
There is some messy stuff usually referred to as red grease. I have a small amount of it I saved from my grandfather's shop almost 40 years ago. I have heard that it works well in model T timers, but I have not tried it yet myself. I understand that it is still available.
Just some thoughts from me. I have seen model T timers go a couple thousand miles with a good packing of the white grease. Running fine the whole time, without a single cleaning.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Carter - South Jersey on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 09:29 pm:

Wayne - are you talking about Lubriplate 105? It is still available many places.
https://www.lubriplate.com/Products/Automotive-Lubricants-Motor-Oils/Lubriplate- No-105-Motor-Assembly-Grease.html

That grease has a lot of uses such as lower units of old outboards, etc.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 09:59 pm:

Phil,

I neve knew Howard. That article is great! His work speaks for itself. Thank you!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 11:01 pm:

The "old fashioned" Lubriplate isn't white.......it's Beige.......it's not cheap but it never was.

http://www.amazon.com/Lubriplate-L0043-004-Registered-ISO-21469-Multi-Purpose/dp /B007VQQAXC/ref=sr_1_2/191-9041830-2486131?ie=UTF8&qid=1465095420&sr=8-2&keyword s=lubriplate


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Sunday, June 05, 2016 - 01:59 am:

The spring on this timer roller is very light, I think that will not be a problem. I have a lot of old stock Lubriplate grease in the black and silver cans, off white, almost yellow in color and very light in viscosity. May be just right for this situation. Thanks to everyone for your input.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, June 05, 2016 - 02:08 am:

For whatever it is worth, I finally got out to the shop where one of my old cans is and looked at it. The number for it appears to be 115 (I wouldn't bet that corresponds to anything current. I don't have any spec information for it (their website calls 115 a water pump grease, I don't know if it is the same thing or not, however, thanks for that lead by the way). But it was said years ago that this particular product had almost no electrical conductivity, and therefore was best for timer use. It is on the beige side of white also.


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