Paris bans Model Ts

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Paris bans Model Ts
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Constantine on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 09:58 am:

http://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/06/paris-bans-pre-1997-cars-from-its-streets-du ring-the-week/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 10:38 am:

Their emissions standards have to be lower than they are here in the States. Especially since the magic # is 1997 by which time we had been requlated up the gazoo. There are many more diesel cars and 2 cycle vehicles in Europe too. Add that to low standards and this is what you get. When was the last time you heard about a smog alert? Used to be daily in California but we clean up real good I guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 10:57 am:

That's not exactly what it says. Gasoline cars can only be used on the weekend.

However I think the Model T, being a flex fuel car, can meet or exceed emission standards if it were run on alcohol.

The Model T could actually play a leadership role in the environmental movement if the community had a mind to do it. This is how you get the youth interested in the hobby - lead by example.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 11:00 am:

Spreading false revisionist history is not going to help the Model T hobby. The Model T is not and never has been a flex fuel vehicle. That is simply nonsense.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 11:50 am:

But Royce, You have to "Flex" your arm muscle when you gas up. :-) :-) :-) :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 11:50 am:

The only other fuel that might be used in a Model T is kerosene. I'd hate to see the damage to a carburetor with alcohol run through it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland - West Melbourne Florida on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 11:54 am:

I don't think my Model T will ever see Paris as long as I own it. Should Not be a problem for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 12:53 pm:

The model T will run just fine on kerosene if you have a vaporizer carb. Just need to start it on gasoline and then switch over. Lots of farm applications worked this way. They had a small (1-2 quart) gasoline tank for starting. Diesel requires a bit more "fiddling " but is still doable


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 12:56 pm:

Just to add fuel (or alcohol) to the fire...

https://www.fuelfreedom.org/tag/model-t/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 01:21 pm:

Also,
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5qDYoEupI28

Ford was known for experimenting with alcohol fuels, but The Henry Ford doesn't speak to an Ford vehicle running on alcohol until an all plastic car was built and patented in 1942 by Henry Ford. http://www.kod.ford.com/fordipedia/Pages/Henry%20Ford.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 01:21 pm:

David Paul:

We are all living in the "Golden Age of Misinformation."


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 01:28 pm:

All I'm saying is that Henry Ford actively worked on using alcohol fuels. Like the one link I posted, the first mention of an alcohol fueled car was in 1942.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 01:38 pm:

All three articles provided in the first link are baloney.

The David Blume video on YouTube is egregious.

The third link is broken and doesn't open for me.

Folks shouldn't confuse logic with history as it actually happened. Just because something may sound logical does not mean it actually happened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Schedler, Sacramento on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 01:38 pm:

Terry, I have used kerosene and "it don't work for sour apples". It causes very black exhaust and makes the engine ping and there's almost not enough power to get the car moving. I'll never do it again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By thomas elliott nw pa on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 01:39 pm:

I have far more problems to worry about, like getting this back together and learning to drive it without running into something! I don't preach it but I do like clean air! I remember LA and Long Beach in the late fifties and now that I am home in Pa. not far from Pittsburgh I remember that city that was monochromatic shades of gray!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 02:14 pm:

Erik,
The third link is from The Henry Ford and information is straight from Ford archives. In the link, it talks to Ford research for organic fuels and speaks to Ford building an all plastic bodied car which was fueled by alcohol and patented in 1942.

The first two links were an illustration of the mis-information which has been distributed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 02:19 pm:

If they won't let you into Paris, go to Sherman or Clarksville.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 03:22 pm:

I'm aware that of the plastic bodied Ford.

Are folks now claiming that ran on alcohol? That's a new one one me.

https://www.thehenryford.org/collections-and-research/digital-resources/popular- topics/soy-bean-car/


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 03:46 pm:

We in Texas would welcome Model T's in Paris. Our club has had three Model T tours to Paris.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ALAN FAIRCLOUGH on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 04:07 pm:

I am sure a model T has been run on moonshine at some time in the past....
where can I get a sample? ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 04:34 pm:

Well you bet the farm that if this can be twisted to show a change that the liberal government likes in the pollution, this process will spread all over the world.
Not a good thing for the less financially fortunate . I would go further but it would violate the rules. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 05:08 pm:

Jesse - I respectfully disagree. You get the youth interested by presenting to them the unadulterated history of the car. The kind of group think you reference is a threat to the hobby and leads to the kind of actions taken in the originally referenced article.

What is really needed to get the youth interested (hands on experience) does not require any words at all.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Blanchard on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 05:31 pm:

Right now I don't think any cars are going to be driving through Paris... but I am sure if any car could wade through that water it would be a model T!

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-36441322


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 05:57 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 06:36 pm:


quote:

The kind of group think you reference is a threat to the hobby and leads to the kind of actions taken in the originally referenced article.




Au contraire mes ami!

People below 35 who think global warming is an imminent threat to humanity approach 80%.

You want to attract youngsters to the hobby? The Model T - zero emissions car of the sustainable future! Maybe Henry can redeem himself from being our favorite anti-Semitic fascist.

I think the Model T community could generate a lot of new public interest in these vehicles perhaps making them more valuable to a wider demographic.

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on June 03, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 06:39 pm:

Lying about Model T's to create a false history is not going to be popular with any demographic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 07:05 pm:

Jesse,

How ironic that your solution for righting past wrongs is more social engineering.

Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 07:14 pm:

P.S. If this is all a joke, you win, pass go, collect $200, and get your handprints on the forum walk of fame.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 07:17 pm:

Well, for what it is worth, I know my grandfather told me of several trips he made from the town of Moresville NC to Mrytle Beach SC in a model T Ford running on kerosene. It was during the time of ration tickets for fuel. He had plenty for kerosene and not many for gas.So he would hide the car, carry a can to the station and fill it up and take it back to the car. Start it on gas, run it a while, switch over and cruise. The reason he went to this trouble is it was the only way he could get "lucky" with grandma before they finally got hitched.
Now I know no reason he would have to lie about something like that to his grandson,do yU?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 08:24 pm:

My dad's 1942 Case tractor was started on gas and run on kerosene through out the war. It had a adjustable carb, just like a T and a small fuel tank for gasoline. My dad started it on gasoline and switched back when he stopped it. You have to lean the mixture because of the extra "heat value" (heavier fuel) of the kerosene


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 08:34 pm:

Seriously folks, the scary part about this legislation is that others will follow the example. The next generation has very little tolerance for things they do not consider "normal" or "harmful." Old cars get a double whammy because they don't have pollution control devices (other then the driver) and they don't travel and stop like a modern car. Most all of us old car folks keep our cars tuned up better than they were when new, and the percentage of us driving compared to the general driving population is nill. I doubt that not allowing historical vehicles in Paris will change the pollution level a measurable amount!
However, as legislative bodies go after this kind of control, our ability to drive our cars will diminish, if not be outlawed eventually! Heck, this law is going to go after cars no more than 10 years old in a few years! Both my everyday drivers are over 10 years old!
How long before this kind of legal thinking gets to these shores??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Woods, Richmond, Texas on Friday, June 03, 2016 - 09:55 pm:

Hal, I didn't say I was advocating the use of kerosene, nor have I personally. I was just referring to its possible use in a vaporizer or a Fordson tractor, or similar vehicle. I don't know if it is true, I I've heard G.I.s in WWII used diesel in Jeeps by draining enough water from them to run hot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 11:36 am:


quote:

The Model T is not and never has been a flex fuel vehicle.




OK, fair enough. What's your source?


quote:

Abstract

The fuel of the future, according to both Henry Ford and Charles F. Kettering, was ethyl alcohol made from farm products and cellulosic materials...

U.S. Automakers, Alcohol Fuels and Ethyl Leaded Gasoline

Before World War I, U.S. automakers were aware of the potential for alcohol fuel, but given the short-term economic picture, stayed with gasoline and low compression engines. Most popular cars, such as the Ford Model T, had low compression engines, an adjustable carburetor and a spark advance that made it possible to switch from gasoline to alcohol to kerosene as needed. Despite Ford’s later support for alcohol fuel in the 1920s and 1930s, the only fuel the company actually handled was “Fordsol,” benzine from Ford factory coking operations and regular gasoline...




http://www.environmentalhistory.org/billkovarik/about-bk/research/henry-ford-cha rles-kettering-and-the-fuel-of-the-future/



(Message edited by jesselashcraft on June 04, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 11:58 am:

"Flex fuel" is a modern term.

Gasoline is the only fuel specified in the the Ford Manual (i.e. the owners manual). Ford Motor Company never promoted or marketed the Model T Ford as a motor car that could be operated on a variety of fuels.

The only mention of alcohol in the the Ford Manual is for use as antifreeze in the cooling system.

Also - cork carburetor floats were typically sealed with shellac. Alcohol is a shellac solvent.

There is absolutely nothing unique about the ability to adjust the fuel mixture and ignition timing on a Model T Ford. That technology pre-dates the Model T Ford and is common for internal combustion engines of that era regardless if they were utilized in an automobile or other applications.

Nothing is stopping you from going down to the hardware store, purchasing a gallon or two of denatured alcohol or kerosene and putting it in your Model T fuel tank and operating your car in that matter.

I suggest that you obtain a copy of "Practical Treatise on Automobiles" (Edited by Oscar C. Schmidt) copyright 1909. This is an extensive book, 909 pages contained in two volumes. The chapter "Carburetors and Fuel Mixtures" (81 pages) discusses alcohol and alcohol blends at length and running alcohol in carburetors designed for gasoline. The information in this book refutes the misinformed claims made today that early motorists fueled their automobiles with alcohol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 12:42 pm:

I'm willing to stipulate that the Model T wasn't "designed" to be a flex fuel car although knowing Ford's fascination with alcohol and the uncertainty of obtaining gasoline everywhere (especially in rural areas), I think it's real plausible that it was with some minor carburetor modification. Is it disputed that Ford's first self powered buggy ran on ethanol?

Let's just say it worked out that way. The Model T is a flex fuel vehicle as attested to by several here with practical experience.

If the objective is to draw new interest to this hobby and maybe increase the value of your machines, this seems like the perfect angle.

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on June 04, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 05:59 pm:


quote:

How ironic that your solution for righting past wrongs is more social engineering.




Well, how's this for social engineering?

Do you know what externalities are? Externalities are the costs huge corporations pass off to the taxpayer because they can. Now think for a minute what it costs to keep a standing army in the Middle East guarding the oil spigot. It wouldn't surprise me if we're actually paying $20 a gallon at the pump. (Whatever that number is, I bet it's scary high). And this. of course, doesn't include the number of military personnel being killed or maimed fighting under the pretense of combating terrorism which, in turn, makes us in the West less safe.

In that light, alcohol is a real bargain.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 06:47 pm:

An Externalite to me is the cost of the carb rebuild kit that I had to buy every couple years before I found a gas station that sells non-ethanol AMERICAN fuel.

The social engineers that cause 80% of folks under 35 (your statistic, not mine) to think that the world is warming are the same folks who are trying to stop the booming US natural gas revolution at every turn.

So don't preach to me about energy independence.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 06:52 pm:

Jesse,

The "Environmentalists" often make up history to suit their latest bs story. You won't find any reference from the era the Model T was built that supports that load of hooey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Saturday, June 04, 2016 - 07:30 pm:

If we didn't have an administration committed to moonbeams and rainbow dust as an energy policy, the U.S. could probably be energy independent with oil. Global warming? Of course there's global warming. The earth has been warming and cooling for hundreds of thousands of millennia. Why should we think it would suddenly stop now? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Sunday, June 05, 2016 - 09:18 am:


quote:

Also - cork carburetor floats were typically sealed with shellac. Alcohol is a shellac solvent.




Hi Eric - Come to think of it, gasoline is a pretty good solvent. Are you saying gasoline doesn't dissolve the shellac off those floats over time? That would be pretty interesting if it didn't.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Sunday, June 05, 2016 - 09:27 am:

What do you say we not turn "innovation" into a political agenda because we end up wandering way off the ranch when we do that.

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on June 05, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Sunday, June 05, 2016 - 10:02 am:

The same thing happens when you try to do it to the model t hobby.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Sunday, June 05, 2016 - 10:04 am:

Gee, I wish you all hadn't published this. If OBAMA or his following of "tree huggers" see this it will be another EXECUTIVE ORDER!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Sunday, June 05, 2016 - 10:32 am:

Jesse:

Gasoline does not dissolve shellac. Neither does mineral spirits.

Shellac in dry form, either in flakes or on an already applied finished surface, is dissolved with alcohol.

(Ever open a can of shellac? What do you smell? Alcohol, because alcohol is the solvent for shellac.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 11:05 am:

I don't plan on ever taking a car to Paris, so I'm not too worried about their laws having an effect on my driving habits. But I do agree that a dangerous precedent is being set here.

I have always been fascinated by the idea of running my T on fuels other than gasoline. I guess it's the prepper in me. If the zombie apocalypse ever happens, I just need to set up a still and I'll still have fuel for my T. It's good to have options. haha


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 11:28 am:


quote:

The information in this book refutes the misinformed claims made today that early motorists fueled their automobiles with alcohol.




Thanks for the reference, Eric but this doesn't close the deal for me. I couldn't find anything in the chapter you mentioned that maintains early motorists only fueled there cars with gasoline although they did conclude that gasoline is the most satisfactory in the "present state of liquid fuel development." But there is no mention I could find that it was the only fuel of the day. In fact the authors, like Ford himself, thought alcohol would eclipse gasoline as a growing concern in the future. The advantages and disadvantages were listed of kerosene, straight alcohol and alcohol mixtures. Their beef with straight alcohol was that it was expensive at the time and apparently unsuitable for "high speed low compression" motors. Does the Model T qualify as high speed motor? I don't know - maybe in 1909. However, alcohol blends got high marks.

It seems to me that if Ford wanted his market to reach the rural back country at a time when obtaining gasoline was iffy at best and Ford himself was fascinated by the promise of alcohol fuel technology, the "universal car" would be capable of running on more than just gasoline even though it wasn't marketed that way, probably due to manufacturer's understandable reluctance to stand behind a product that farmers were fueling with a concoction of who knows what (reference the carburetor floats).

Here are some excerpts to help jog your memory.


quote:

Petroleum products are the most common elements used in practice, although acetylene gas and alcohol are also used to a more or less limited extent...

Alcohol as a Motor Car Fuel. The removal of the tax from alcohol for industrial purposes and the steadily increasing cost price of gasoline and kerosene have directed much thought to the possibility of utilizing the vast alcohol production resources of the United States, and the establishment of an unlimited supply
of cheap alcohol. The facts that alcohol of sufficient purity for use in engines can be produced from the waste products of many of the country's industries, and at a nominal cost, and that many thousands of acres of land, unfit for the cultivation of first-class grain, etc., may be utilized for the production of vegetable matter rich in the elements which form alcohol upon fermentation, lead to the supposition that within a few years, or as soon as there is a sufficient demand for alcohol to warrant the erection of special distilleries, it may be purchased at such a low price that it will not only be commercially possible, but will in a measure force gasoline and other petroleum distillates from the field...

Alcohol. As alcohol is a fixed product, and the same the world over, it has a great advantage as a motive power over gasoline and other petroleum products.

Denatured alcohol contains 4,172 heat units per pound as compared to 18,000 for gasoline, and, as its cost is higher, this fuel would not seem practicable from an economic standpoint. By mixing the alcohol, however, with a high grade of gasoline, its price is lowered, and the number of heat units per pound greatly increased...

Many experiments are being made to find some form of mixed fuels which will give the explosive advantages of each of them. Among those most mentioned is a blend of fuels with an alcoholic base. Straight alcohol, owing to the unlimited quantities in which it can be produced and the tendency of the price to become lower and lower as the demand for it increases, would be an ideal substitute for gasoline were it not for the fact that for a number of reasons it is unsuited for use in the high speed low compression motor.

Alcohol Mixtures. The principal shortcomings of alcohol, which it is sought to remedy by blending, are its comparatively low calorific value and the tardiness with which a mixture of alcohol vapor and air takes fire.

Alcohol and Acetylene. It is claimed that one of the best mixtures which can be used in a gasoline motor is an admixture of alcohol with acetylene. This gas may be formed by bringing a spray of diluted alcohol in contact with calcium carbide, thus forming a gas known as alkoethane. The objections to this method, however, are the weight of the carbide and the imperfect generation of the gas due to vibrations of the vehicle.

The Adaptability of Motor Fuel. The commercial value of any liquid fuel for use in engines is the quantity that will have to be burned to produce one horse power for one hour. Assuming mechanism of equal mechanical and thermal efficiency, when using any one of several fuels, the values of these power fuels are inversely as the costs of equal amounts of heat energy, and directly as the adaptability of the fuel to the service. For example, kerosene and gasoline have approximately equal calorific values, with the cost of kerosene per pound slightly lower. Thus it would seem that, in consideration of the cost for equal amounts of heat energy, the kerosene is of slightly greater value, but such is not the case, because the adaptabilities of the two fuels for use in engines are not equal; that is, gasoline possesses the advantage of being much more volatile and thus more readily mixed with the air used for its combustion. Of all the hydrocarbons, gasoline is the most satisfactory in the present state of liquid fuel motor development.




Apparently, the carburetor hot air pipe would be necessary in the summer when burning ethanol.


quote:

Difficulties of Vaporizing Alcohol. While gasoline will vaporize at ordinary air temperature to form mixtures of theoretically best proportions, the same is not true of alcohol, because of the much lower vapor pressure of saturation of the latter fuel at any given temperature. The vapor pressure of saturation for ethyl alcohol is such that the chemically best mixture of air and alcohol vapor cannot exist at temperatures under 72 degrees Fahr. At temperatures lower than this there must be an excess of air in the mixtures. This accounts for the difficulties experienced in attempting to use alcohol in a carburetor of the type employed for gasoline; the required degree of saturation of the air with alcohol vapor to form the best mixture cannot take place at the temperatures at which the carburetors operate, and the greater part of the fuel supplied is carried unvaporized into the engine cylinders, where it is undoubtedly vaporized, but at a time when it can no longer contribute to the maximum, pressure of the burning charge. This results in a retardation of the rate of flame propagation in the ignited charge, and is one of the contributory causes of excessive fuel consumption.

Influence of Moisture in Air. Commercial alcohol always contains a considerable proportion of water, and for this reason, also, the vaporization of the alcohol is retarded. If the humidity of the air is high, vaporization is still farther retarded, and the only recourse is the addition of heat to the air. By heating the air the required amount of alcohol vapor may be maintained in the mixture, but it is readily seen that with a great proportion of water in the alcohol, or a great amount of water vapor in the air, or both, the temperature of the air, to insure that the alcohol is properly vaporized, would be such that the charge weight per motor stroke would be lessened and a loss in power result there from.

Methods of Vaporization. Vaporization of fuel may be done in two ways: by heat or by vacuum. Vaporization due to pressure reduction is distinguished from vaporization caused by the supplying of heat. In the former action vaporization can become only partially complete, however far the process of reduction is carried, since the part of liquid which vaporizes does so through the abstraction of heat from the remainder, which becomes constantly colder, until finally the temperature of the liquid is so low that vaporization ceases until heat is supplied from some outside source. Where vaporization is brought about entirely by heat from some outside source, the degree to which it may be carried depends wholly upon the amount of heat supplied, since the temperature of the liquid is being constantly raised to or maintained at the proper point...




link to resource







(Message edited by jesselashcraft on June 06, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 11:40 am:

A brief on-line search of The Henry Ford site has many references to early alcohol research items located in their archives from Ford Motor Company (dating back into the teens). Fordpedia doesn't mention an alcohol fueled Ford vehicle until 1942. Fordpedia is an internal Ford database.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ALAN FAIRCLOUGH on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 11:56 am:

About a decade ago, thanks to W, we were ordered to add up to 10% ethanol in our fuels because the cost of a barrel of imported or domestic oil was high and ethanol could be produced in abundance in the US with a $0.50 per gallon subsidy from the taxpayers to the ethanol producers. With time, we found out producing ethanol was not cleaner, cheaper or easier than refining oil. Ethanol produces about 75% of the power that gasoline produces, so more ethanol is needed to obtain the same horsepower. Add to that the cost of converting motors for ethanol use, which is no big deal but has to be done.
Today, the price of a barrel of oil is less than half of what it was back then, (even the domestic oil), and producing gasoline is cheaper, while producing ethanol is not.

why the hell are we still putting ethanol in our fuel?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 01:44 pm:


quote:

why the hell are we still putting ethanol in our fuel?




We're supporting those corn raising corporate farms in Kansas and Nebraska.

Making ethanol out of corn is inefficient. It takes more energy to make corn ethanol than there is in the ethanol. However, making alcohol out of switchgrass or algae is sustainable. I suspect that's the case with sugar cane or sugar beets too although I haven't seen any numbers on it.

If we only knew what the true cost of a gallon of gas was vis a vis keeping a military presence thoughout the Middle East, it would make the transition to a renewable alcohol fuel seem like such no brainer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Monday, June 06, 2016 - 02:02 pm:

I had a brain flatulence awhile ago and it lead to this theory.
Perhaps leaders in Paris have spent a large fortune on a public transportation system and have found a back door way to force the people to use it so they won't look like idiots?

Reminds me of Charlotte NC and the state,spending a fortune on a #*#*# passenger train. They have blocked off half the roads in several county's,more than tripling the response times for fire and rescue so a 1/4 full train can buzz thru uninterrupted.

And R. S. Cruickshank I agree with what you said.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 09:07 am:

Jesse, I must respectfully disagree with your theory about "corporate farms". This is a topic that really gets under my skin, and it comes from the disconnect between urban and rural America.

According to the USDA, 97% of American farms are family-owned. Not Corporate. Many farmers incorporate their operations into an LLC or other business entity, but they aren't owned by some large Umbrellacorp or anything like that. Source: http://www.usda.gov/wps/portal/usda/usdamediafb?contentid=2015/03/0066.xml&print able=true

I do agree that corn is not the best choice for making ethanol. There are better crops, but I believe corn was chosen because it is already grown in abundance in the United States, making it a logical choice. And once the kernels have been used to make ethanol, the DDGs (Dried Distiller's Grain) make a high-protein feed for livestock. At least, as long as it's allowed to be fed to livestock. I remember reading awhile back about a push to stop feeding DDGs to livestock.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Everett on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 01:33 pm:

Jesse and Jared;

Perhaps you'd like to come to my house for a beer, somewhat in the spirit that Mr. Obama invited a Professor of History at Harvard, and a Cambridge or Boston Policeman when they had a ruckus!

I have something in common with each of you; Jesse, I, too, have a '14, and Jared, I agree with your statement about farms being family owned.

Our customers are agricultural fertilizer / chemical dealers, aerial applicators (crop dusters), liquid fertilizer tanker truck operators, and farms themselves.

When I started working (it was the first year of Mr. Carter's presidency), other than co-ops, almost all the agricultural fertilizer / chemical dealers were family owned. Most were also part of what had already been an older, established business such as a grain elevator, a rice warehouse, a cotton gin, or a sugar mill.

After a serious ag recession in the mid 1980's (I clearly remember John Mellencamp's song "Rain On The Scarecrow, Blood On The Plow"), it saddened me somewhat to see long standing family businesses close, or sell to larger corporations. By about 2000, virtually all family owned fertilizer / chemical dealers had sold to firms such as Terra, Conagra, Helena, Land Of Lakes, etc. The upside to this is that the retail fertilizer / chemical dealer now has substantial resources behind him; he can give exceptional service to his farmer customers.

I don't know that corn is the best choice for making ethanol, I really don't. However, I do believe, at least conceptually, that using American grown corn for making ethanol is the best ECONOMIC choice; anytime we can spend money at home as opposed to sending it overseas is, I believe, better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, June 07, 2016 - 01:54 pm:

Ethanol is made in Brazil using the key ingredient : Peasants. They use sugar cane as the vegetable ingredient, but the real difference in cost is the cost of labor.

Fortunately the government is making more peasants all the time here in the USA by raising taxes, lowering ethical standards, and catering to radical leftists.

Thus we can convert our labor into rich people's bank accounts more effectively.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 08:43 am:


quote:

I must respectfully disagree with your theory about "corporate farms".




Disagreement is approved and sometimes it's healthy but while it is interesting to see there are still many family farms in operation, if I'm reading it correctly, 2/3s of all produce and dairy come from just 3% of the farms. These would be the institutions with pockets deep enough to hire lobbyists to finagle congress into providing subsidies for corn which is an inefficient ethanol source. Maybe in the bigger picture, since the byproduct is animal feed, there is a net positive. I don't know. But if we were going to get serious about ethanol, there needs to be more energy in the ethanol than what was expended to make it.

So if we take the billions of dollars in subsidies the taxpayer now provide to the fossil fuel industry (that is making tens of billions in profits every quarter), and subsidize all those family farmers to grow switchgrass or sugar beets for fuel, it would still be cheaper because we won't have to pay for a standing army in Iowa to secure the ethanol pipeline.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 04:27 pm:

I stayed away from this thread because I suspected it would devolve into crap... and it did, rather quickly too. Sorry I peeked. Continue your rants... bye.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 07:19 am:

Amazing what alcohol does to a conversation, isn't it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 11:33 am:

The democrat party has consistently tried to abandon Israel and let them be annihilated by the Bedouins in the area. I see that Jesse has that affiliation. You are welcome to spout that sort of sordid rhetoric Jesse, and I respect your right to an opinion, but I will not agree with it.

The Israelis are, as Henry Kissinger famously said, the canary in the mine shaft. If they die, we all die. Oil has absolutely nothing to do with maintaining a stable Israel, which has been the basis of United States Middle Eastern policy since 1948.

Honestly none of this has a single thing to do with Model T's, and if I were moderator I would delete this thread. Jesse is simply trying to promote his politics here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 11:43 am:

Politics aside we just wont drive our Ts in Paris. I lived their when i was young and cant figure out the fascination. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:08 pm:

Well played David Paul. You get high marks for content and delivery. Too bad Jerry won't be back to enjoy it.

You know, since alcohol fuel grown on American farms was a long-term vision of Henry Ford, the push back has been kind of surprising.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:11 pm:

Jesse,

Henry Ford never intended or marketed or sold any cars that used alcohol as a fuel. You are simply trying to mislead us.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:33 pm:

Royce,
I agree that Henry Ford never marketed or sold cars that ran on alcohol, however, he id extensive research into alcohol as a fuel beginning in the teens. There are several archived Ford documents in The Henry Ford to attest to his research.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:39 pm:

I can't figure out how this thread dissolved into a "Flex-fuel, alcohol fuel, & Middle East politics" discussion when, IMHO, the real issue here is the outlawing of Older vehicles on the road. THAT is the great danger to our hobby and our ability to drive our cars. THAT's what we should be worrying about!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:41 pm:

David Dewey,
It's not unusual on this board for threads to wonder off target. Sometimes it's fun. Other times it's maddening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 01:50 pm:

David,

Yup, got that, agree completely. Not related to Model T Fords in any manner.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Paul on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 02:10 pm:

Now, if we could only tie Model T's, alcohol fuel, and water pumps together, we'd have a real heated discussion .............


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 02:57 pm:

When the human population sees no issue with having more and more babies, we
overflow our traditional boundaries (both mental and physical) to a point our evolving
society begins to stumble under it's own weight/bulk. It worked fine when we were
all just "tribes in the desert", but just look at the lengths we go to just to "keep a city
moving" in the world's urban areas today. We T people would ask "Why is it we should
be asked to give up our old ways ?" so the nuevo generation of ever-faster-moving (and
congested) masses can carry on at the pace THEY want the world to run at, meanwhile
THEIR paradigm is that us "old ways" people need to either just die off or go do our thing
in some museum type space.

This really delves into philosophosophy and our way-back religious/societal views.
At some point, when water and other essential resources for our "convenient life" run
out, will humanity have the resolve to deal with it ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 08:50 pm:


quote:

Henry Ford never intended or marketed or sold any cars that used alcohol as a fuel...




I can't speak to the veracity of the footnoted references here but they claim Ford started his career on an alcohol powered vehicle. Is that in dispute?


quote:

The Ford Quadricycle was the first vehicle developed by Henry Ford. Ford's first car was a simple frame with an ethanol-powered engine and four bicycle wheels mounted on it...

On June 4, 1896 in a tiny workshop behind his home on 58 Bagley Avenue, Ford put the finishing touches on his pure ethanol-powered motor...




https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Quadricycle

(Message edited by jesselashcraft on June 10, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 08:55 pm:

I did not bother to read the Wikipedia link Jesse. If it supports what you are saying it is wildly inaccurate. Ford's quadricyle ran only on gasoline.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 09:01 pm:


quote:

...the real issue here is the outlawing of Older vehicles on the road. THAT is the great danger to our hobby and our ability to drive our cars. THAT's what we should be worrying about!




In my first post, I posited that a Model T could meet or exceed all emission standards if it were run on alcohol. So I guess what I was originally trying to say was: I'm not worried about it.

The exciting conversation that ensued after that was just gravy. You're welcome.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dick Lodge - St Louis MO on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 09:02 pm:

Gotta love agendas...

Still looking for the enormous "standing armies" that the US is maintaining in the Middle East. Does Obama know? He created the current muddle in the area by withdrawing US troops so he could win an election. He'd be surprised to learn about the huge standing armies, I suspect. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 09:27 am:

I'm going to attempt to steer this thread back to the topic at hand. Probably won't work, but it's worth a shot.

Has anyone ever calculated the carbon footprint of a Model T? Surely driving one of these 89+ year old cars is as environmentally responsible, if not more so, than a brand new Prius or Tesla. Everybody who's pushing for hybrid or electic "green" cars don't take into consideration the environmental impact of building a brand new car, building the batteries for said car, and so on. I bet burning a little gas in a T is still better for the environment than buying a Prius.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:23 am:

I wonder if any numbers are available comparing the cost of charging batteries with wind mills or the brakes like on a Prius.
My Toyotas get forty or more MPG on the road but less in town with stop and go driving and are trouble free. From what I hear the cost of a Tesla would take a life time to make up in fuel savings.

And some sort of generating system has to produce that energy with line loss as more folks use electric,


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Zachary Dillinger - Charlotte, MI on Friday, June 17, 2016 - 09:06 am:

Just saw this on Hemmings: Historic vehicles to gain exemption from Paris old car ban.

http://blog.hemmings.com/index.php/2016/06/17/historic-vehicles-to-gain-exemptio n-from-paris-old-car-ban/?refer=news


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Brancaccio - Calgary Alberta on Friday, June 17, 2016 - 11:19 am:

This is for when the link above doesn't work.

In a case that may have ramifications across Europe and perhaps the world, French historic vehicle enthusiasts have convinced the authorities in Paris to provide an exemption to the city’s pending old-car ban for certain historic vehicles.

The ban, announced last year but finalized within the last month, will go into effect July 1, and will restrict all pre-1997 vehicles from the streets of Paris between 8 a.m. and 8 p.m. Monday through Friday. Intended to combat the rising air pollution levels in the city, the ban will become stricter over time, eventually barring all vehicles built before 2011 by 2020.

Or, almost all. As the Fédération Française des Véhicules d’Epoque (FFVE), the French arm of the Fédération Internationale des Véhicules Anciens, announced on its website, members of the FFVE earlier this month reached an agreement with city officials to exempt historic vehicles from the ban. Under the terms of the agreement, which they expect the city to publish toward the end of June, any vehicle 30 years old or older wearing a Carte Grise de Collection registration sticker – as opposed to a Carte Grise Normale registration sticker – will be allowed in the city at all times.

Vehicles wearing a Carte Grise Normale registration will continue to be banned, as will those less than 30 years old (a category known in Europe as Youngtimers), though the FFVE has scheduled further meetings with Paris officials to address possible exemptions for Youngtimers.

According to Gautam Sen, FIVA vice president of external relations, the agreement between FFVE and Paris officials could prove influential in convincing other cities considering similar bans to make exemptions for historic vehicles.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ALAN FAIRCLOUGH on Friday, June 17, 2016 - 11:51 am:

I wonder if T's could be made to run cleaner with aftermarket products such as catalytic converters, add on fuel injection system, computer controlled spark advance, etc. And still look like a T from the outside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mack Cole ---- Earth on Friday, June 17, 2016 - 12:08 pm:

A T converted to pass all the emissions and safety rules would just look like a 2016 Ford Focus.It is basically the T model of today.

I sure hope Paris is looking at ways of helping the poor get to work and doctors.

This thread went off track and into the woods, but as said before ,this action sets a precedent that others will follow. Just as the new soft drink tax in Philly will do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Danek_ Salem, Mass on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 12:10 pm:

Didn't know if this guy got the message or not. Said it was a '55. Saw it 3 days ago at a stop light on Rue Bonaparte in Paris. Left in a cloud of blue smoke. Definitely needs rings!



Alan BTW this is what is passing as a Model T touring car in Prague. Fiberglass body, automatic transmission, disc brakes and a 4T ? engine. The only part close to a model t would be the repro motormeter



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnCodman on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 10:56 am:

I haven't seen anything from Ford that would indicate that the T was intended to run on alcohol, but there is no reason why a T wouldn't run on the stuff. The problems with alcohol are that it contains almost exactly 2/3 of the BTUs per gallon as gasoline, it absorbs water, and it's stoichiometric (proper) air/fuel ratio at sea level is 9:1. The correct mixture for gasoline and air is 14.7:1. Translation: running alcohol will cause horrible fuel economy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jesse L. Ashcraft on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 09:23 am:

>>>Translation: running alcohol will cause horrible fuel economy.<<<

We make choices every day. The anxiety embedded in this thread was that our antique cars would soon be banned from operation because they don't meet emission standards. I suspect that if they were run on ethanol, they would meet or exceed emission standards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 10:04 am:

There's some info missing from this discussion. Yes, the BTU yield of alcohol is less than that of refined gasoline. However, its "octane number" is higher because because it "burns" more slowly than gasoline. A couple of the advantages of ethanol blended fuels in MODERN vehicles are that less crude is needed in refining a gallon of gasoline if alcohol can be blended in to raise the octane number. Its no secret that Premium costs more than regular, simply because it takes more crude oil in the refining processes to achieve the same octane number than Regular fuel. By adding ethanol that octane number of regular unleaded can be raised to 86/87 without increasing the amount of crude achieved in that process to achieve the same number. Is this economical? That depends on lots of factors from the price of crude, the type of crude oil, gov't supports, and the price of corn production.

The other relative advantage of ethanol blended fuels is that they reduce NOX emissions by reducing excessively high combustion temps. None of these facts are really relevant to cars with a 4:1 oven a 6:1 compression ratio. They are relevant to modern cars that now use turbo charging, fuel injection, and compression ratios that are now around 9:1 and greater.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ivan Warrington on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 10:56 am:

I always thought my 27" with evaporator carb was flex fuel!


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