Old Photo - Early FORD Out And About

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Old Photo - Early FORD Out And About
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jay - In Northern California on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 10:28 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 12:35 pm:

Looks like a 1907 Model S Roadster.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Milton Roorda on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 04:52 pm:

Do the front axle and fenders look like a wide track or is the photo a little distorted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 05:47 pm:

60" Wide track was first offered on 1908 Model S, so it might be one of them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 06:05 pm:

To my eye, the photo is distorted. Here's a version with a 15% correction in the horizontal plane. Still may be a wide-track though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Parker on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 06:23 pm:

Are those E&J side lights?

Ken in Texas


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

This is a 1908 Model S Roadster. Production of the S Roadster began about the beginning of March, 1908 and continued through August, although a few were built in September, and Bruce McCalley found shipping invoices for two more S Roadsters in July, 1909.

This car is a standard 56 inch track Model SR. The wide track Model SR's used a front axle identical to the Model T wide track axle, including the two front spring perches. It also used the early Model T front spindles and spindle bolts. The front radius rod for the wide track Model SR's was also unique to this car because the front radius rod was inserted into the front spring perches, as on a Model T.

The standard 56 inch track Model NRS cars had their spring perches forged as an integral part of the front axle. The car in the photo's front axle shows that the spring perches and the sockets are a part of the front axle forging.

The Ford NRS parts books indicate that the N, R and S Runabouts could be had as wide track versions, however the parts catalog and NRS drawings collection do not show any wide track fenders for the runabouts, although the parts books and the original factory drawings (on film) for the wide track Model SR fenders and shields have survived.

Turning to the side lights, the ones on this car appear to be E&J flare side lights. The E&J flare sides often appear on S Runabouts and Roadsters. The factory documentation calls for an Ames #18 tail light, which can be found without too much difficulty.

The S Roadsters were painted with the same shade of red paint that the early Model Ts were painted. They had black striping on the axles, bodies and wheels. It is difficult to see the stripping on original period photos of these cars because of the monochromatic film used at that time. The color red on monochromatic film appears as black in the prints, and the black stripes fade into the black background.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Lyon, PDX, OR. on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 08:49 pm:

Who needs an encylopedia when you've got somebody as knowledgeable as Trent? Don.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 09:08 pm:

Trent states a fact that is often overlooked. There is no such thing as a 1907 Model S. It is impossible to find a Model K owner honest enough T admit his car is a 1908 or 1909 for similar reasons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 09:31 pm:

Hi Royce,

Actually, there were 1907 Model S Fords - Runabouts. Production began in July of 1907.

The Model S Roadster did not appear until March 1908.

All in all there were 6 different Model NRS versions. They are (in order of appearance):
Model N Runabout
Model R Runabout
Model S Runabout
Model S coupe (About 28 were built during the winter of 1908)
Model S Roadster
Model S Landaulet (Evidence, including photos and drawings suggest that maybe 2 were built).

To be clear, Ford considered two passenger open cars to be runabouts. The S Roadster is a three passenger car and has a single "Mother-in-law" seat at the rear.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 09:37 pm:

Thanks for the correction Trent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 10:36 pm:

240 Model S runabouts were sold in fiscal year 1907 (prior to Oct 1, 1907). I suspect Ford may have referred to them as "1908" models. I have seen Ford advertisements announcing the S runabout as a step between model N and R, although I suspect Ford planned all along to end Model R for the 1908 model year.

Model A, C, B, F, K, N and R were all sold outside their "model" years. For example, 5 Model B, 2 Model C and 3 Model F were sold by FMC (FMC audit) in fiscal year 1907 (Oct 1, 1906-Sep 31, 1907). Does this make them 1907 models? Of course not. No different than the Model T. Were Model T produced and sold prior to 1909? Yes, just over 300. Were some Model T produced (assembled and/or sold) after 1927? Yes. Were these 1908 or 1928 Model T? No.

Trent, Ford seemed to be evolving concerning their terminology of "runabout" and "roadster." The first Model K with a rumble seat were referred to Ford advertising as "Runabouts." During the summer of 1907 advertising began to refers." I don't know if Ford was preparing for the introduction of the S Roadster, and began to differentiate between the N, R and 1997 S runabouts because of the impending S Roadster, or what caused the change?

I'll post a few examples as I find them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 10:59 pm:

Model K two seat (with rumble) were initially called "runabout" in Ford advertising. During the summer of 1907 ads changed to "roadster," although the model was listed as either roadster or runabout through 1907 in advertising:



This used widetrack Model S was listed for sale in 1909. I presume because it is listed as "Brewster green" that it was a runabout:



A September 1907 Ford ad listing the new Model S as an intermediate model between Model N and R:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 11:01 pm:

Great car and pic. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 12:05 am:

Drool. Even tho "I" think an N is far cuter.
Ya figure the fella used his "inside the rim" controls a regular practice? Look at his throttle hand. I cannot make out his right hand. Am I just seeing things?
And my son tries to steer me AWAY from an early Ford... Uff da.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 10:56 pm:

Duey,
Early Ford's are a pleasure to drive. Model N are responsive and relatively easy to operate and maintain. Except for two lube points (engine and transmission) vs. one on a Model T, they are similar. Model NRS have a shorter wheelbase, so rough roads are a little less comfortable, otherwise they drive very much like a T. The hp to weight ratio is similar to a T so they are peppy and quick.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:29 am:

Rob H! You are not helping! I already want one!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 11:39 am:

You had to be the coolest guy in town with that in that day. Not a single other car on the street.. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:05 pm:

I don't know about that Tim. There were probably plenty of folks who thought, "There he is again in that damn noisy smelly contraption. Why can't he take his girl out in a buggy like everybody else?" :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Herb Iffrig on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 07:10 pm:

Trent what about the model S touring car?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 11:47 pm:

Hi Herb,

Funny thing about the so-called Model S touring: I have never found any documentation that Ford ever built any. S Coupes - yes, because we can find documentation that 28 were sold. Landaulets - yes, because there is a picture of one in the collections of the Benson Ford, and the NRS parts drawing collection has a drawing of a special exhaust manifold to be used with the Landaulet. S Tourings - I have found nothing, zip, nada.

There may have been one of the experimental Model Ts that looked like a Model S with a touring body on it. Also, some of the first advertisements for the forthcoming Model T in December of 1907 and January of 1908 show what appears to be an S-like car with a touring car body on it. Those advertising images may have been just artist's renditions.

Then there is the car the late Cecil Church restored in the mid-1970's. It is featured on the front cover of the November/December 1976 Model T Times. Mr. Church also wrote an article about the car stating that only a few dozen were produced beginning in October 1907. The article also states that the S Touring car used a special frame that was 10 inches longer.

I have never seen the car, so I cannot make any statements about it. I do find it puzzling that the drawings for the special frame rails, torque tube, drive shaft, and rear radius rods necessary to build a 10 inch longer touring car are not in the NRS drawings collection at the Benson Ford Research Center.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 03:52 pm:

Trent,
A few thoughts, and questions (probably more of the latter).

In Ford audit materials for the month of October, 1907 (first month of fiscal year 1908) Ford reported the sale of a "rumble seat" and Laundaulet" (their spelling not mine). While difficult to read, the two entries with a 1 beside each. The costs of each are not similar to Model N, R, or S (reported on the lines above these):


Courtesy THF, all rights apply

In the year end FY report, two "T" and one Laundaulet are reported sold for the year. For the year, 26 Model S Coupe are reported sold:


courtesy THF, all rights apply

Now, for the questions. A few pages later in the audit, the following page:


courtesy THF, all rights apply

It appears a total of "3 T," "2 Laund." and "67 S. Coupe" were delivered, with the remainder (67 produced - 26 sold) in inventory?

If this is the case, it also leaves a number of S Roadsters (3740 delivered - 3680 sold) and Model N in inventory.

If so, at least 67 S coupes were produced, along with a few Model T (what I would call "pre-T), contrary to the numbers we have used historically, I presume based on the audit sales numbers.

I've also collected several reporter descriptions of the new Ford 20 hp model T and Landaulet at a few of the late 1907 auto shows, including the Detroit show, when one of the magazine's received an exclusive view of the new models. I hope we find a photo, or other evidence of these "pre-T" in the future.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 05:16 pm:

Mr. Sheldon, you are quite correct! Rob, you're not helping with my drooling problem and Wayne's wants.... Hehehe! :-)
Works for me! Makes me happy!
I figured as much about those little cars. Snotty little rippers.
My son perhaps doesn't want to take care of even more machines when I'm gone........ :-) Too bad Natey!
Now where's that N basket case that I missed (!!!!!) in New York state around New Years for about ten grand? Dern it.

Thank you to all who keep spurring this old car hobby and it's history alive!

I saw that too about a couple T's being sold very early.
Did the 6 cylinder T get marked as a sale or?????

(Message edited by Duey_C on June 12, 2016)


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