Some help for a little old lady

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Some help for a little old lady
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 02:42 pm:

We were contacted by a friend who knows this lady. Her deceased husband had, and now she has, a 1923 T "roadster", and I use the term loosely.

It's not run in 20 years. She asked us to see if we could get it running (not running yet) and asked the value because she wants to sell it.

It has an all wood body (see pics). Good compression. We're going to try and get it running Saturday.

Bottom line is, can you help me place a value on it for her both running and non-running?

I told her maybe 3 grand. Your opinion please?

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 03:07 pm:

Marty - I think you're like me on values/prices,......living in the past! I'd say if the sheet metal is as solid as it looks, more like 4 grand not running and 6 grand if it runs without a lot of blue smoke! Heck,....there's a big chunk of that 3 grand you suggested in just the wheels and tires!

And by the way Marty,.....if someone criticizes you for putting this on the forum instead of the classified, I'd say what you've done is kind of a "win/win" situation,.....you're trying to help the lady sell, and providing a nice "tip" for us forum guys too! Actually, I didn't check the "classified",....maybe you DID list the car there,.....FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 03:09 pm:

Hmmm,.....I didn't study the photos closely enough,.....I guess some of that "body" is plywood, huh?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 03:10 pm:

Looks like the lower cowl and body side panels are painted wood?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 03:24 pm:

If it runs and has a Title $3,000 would be good for both party's IMO / $.02


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 05:14 pm:

I think 3,000 is about half way? Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 07:10 pm:

Gentleman,

The body is ALL wood! And not made very well. The only authentic sheet metal are the fenders, running boards, splash aprons, upper cowl (lower front quarter is also wood), windshield, hood, radiator and the turtle deck, but not the lid. The lid is homemade.

In short, it's either driven as is or, once the marine plywood body is removed, you could replace it with a real body or depot hack.

I am not trying to sell the car (that's her problem) I'm just trying to help her put a value on it and get it running -- which we almost did today.

So, value opinions please?

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 07:12 pm:

Considering the fact that it has a homemade body on it and will no doubt need lots of work to be driveable I think 3 grand is probably all that it's worth.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 07:28 pm:

I agree with Stephen!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 08:09 pm:

Disregarding the Mickey Mouse body, note that the car has a high radiator and hood (1924/25 model year) and a 1924 license plate which indicates the deceased owner represented the car to be a 1924 Ford.

I would determine to which model year the motor serial number corresponds prior selling the car.

Also, if the car has a title, that does add some value and makes the car easier to sell. Hopefully, the model year on the title matches the model year of the motor serial number.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 08:17 pm:

I have to agree with Steve and Les. That body kills it for any thing short of a body change. 3 G's. running with a title. It's a chassis and a (probably) re-usable top.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 08:36 pm:

I agree with asking $3k. But if anyone offered more than $2k I'd take it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Wednesday, June 08, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

Statistics show that as men get older, they have more and more trouble getting wood. An obvious solution ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Beatty _Kansas City on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 12:08 am:

Looks like a speedster starter kit to me! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 04:26 am:

That body isn't even that bad in the pictures.. and easy to remake a steel one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 07:28 am:

OMG Burger, laughing my butt off. Good thing I wasn't drinking anything at the moment. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Thursday, June 09, 2016 - 03:57 pm:

Tim,

I am a problem solver, by nature. Just looking for solutions and trying to help where I can. :-)

You gotta think outside the box !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 11:13 am:

$3,000 sounds like a very good price for the buyer. I'd say it's more in the $5-6,000 range if it runs and drives nicely. But that also depends on what kind of work has been done. It's a good thing it's so far away from me, because $3,000 is a tempting price from where I'm sitting.

I guess the real question is how motivated is the owner to sell it? Is she needing the money or the garage space desperately, or is it just a case of "Let's find a good home for you"? If she doesn't need to flip it fast, It wouldn't hurt to put a higher price on it and see what happens.

Just my opinion. Still a good looking car, even if the body is just a homemade deal. It would still be a nice ice cream cruiser.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:10 pm:

Gentleman,

She needs to move it fast. Her house is sold and she has to be out in two weeks. She's moving to Oregon to be with her grandkids.

My son really wants to car -- probably to turn it into a speedster -- and we're thinking of offering 1,500.

Opinions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:14 pm:

For once,i'll hold my mouth shut!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 12:39 pm:

Marty,
Forced sale, but if it is a running, licensed (or titled) car, I would think that and chassis & fenders and turtle would be worth at least $2K. Don't take advantage of the poor gal!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 04:06 pm:

No!!! Taking advantage of anyone is the last thing I want to do!!

Ok, if what I thought it was worth is taking advantage, we'll bump up our offer to 2k.

Thanks for your help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 04:12 pm:

Simple solution. Offer what you think is fair, If she balks, offer to keep her car till you can help her get a higher price, as the cost to move it would be more than it's worth. Then, let your conscience be your guide. But her problem is solved.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 05:19 pm:

I would offer the $1500 you intended. She has to move it quickly, not you. Anyone who thinks you're taking advantage of the situation can mail her a check for the difference. My opinion.

Or, if you up the offer $3000 and find the rear axle needs $1000 to fix plus the engine is shot, etc., etc., the same folks can offer you a check since it is right with the universe.

I don't let the opinions of others influence what I offer on anything. Ever!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Friday, June 10, 2016 - 05:37 pm:

Gary, thanks. It's my son who wants it, so it's kinda up to him -- he's the one who got it running after 20 years.. We'll talk it over and see what happens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 02:37 pm:

Marty,
You are the folks "on location" and probably know the car better than any of us. Hadn't run for 20 years? Well... kinda hard to say what real condition it is in even though it's running now. Driving it around a bit might uncover some real hidden issues. Out here in Califunny though, a titled, licensed car has more value than one without a title etc. Paperwork here is becoming more difficult. I have a '79 Toyota pickup I stopped driving, and forgot to put on "non-operating" status. To get it back in the system, even though it was registered in my name, and at this address would likely cost more than the vehicle is worth--I'll probably have to donate it to one of the turn-in-car joints just to get it out of my hair (and it has a new radiator!)
So Gary has a really good point! Let us know how it goes--after all, the "Little Old Lady" can always turn you down!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 04:27 pm:

My son went to make an offer and NOW she tells him that the car is in her sons name. Turns out -- and I can't blame him -- he's going to advertise it just to see what happens. My son told him that if he doesn't get a better offer, my sons offer stands. He has to go over there tonight to show the son how to start it!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 06:41 pm:

Hmm, maybe time ISN'T of the essence here. Advertising takes time.
Nice to find "the rest of the story." Now it's just income for the son. . . .


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 09:36 pm:

Do what you want but if they wait until two days before the house sells and the car must be gone after your son made a good faith offer, I would automatically drop by $250 to $500. They apparently didn't appreciate real money in front of them and the cost to learn that lesson should be something.

I'm not saying I'm the best negotiator in the world but when I'm serious I don't care to be yanked around and don't tolerate it. When I bought my house years ago the mortgage broker tells me two hours before closing that there will be a point and a half on the loan. I contacted the seller, took possession with a thirty day rental, reset the closing and finance with my credit union at no points. Never allow anyone to yank you on money, EVER!

Car dealers will often try this as many of you know. Don't stand for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill in Adelaida Calif on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 12:32 am:

David Dewey

Your Toyo is over 25 years old and since you ARE a collector (you have a T after all) you ARE exempt from any late fees or back fees. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 08:43 am:

If I had to guess, the son told the mom that it's worth way more than it truly is and that selling it for so cheap would be bad for her, so she just signed it over to him and now he's going to be one of those ads we see for a "rare and historical T Model Ford, the car that put the world on wheels!" with some kind of exorbitant price tag attached. Not trying to talk bad about the family, but it happens. A little too often in my opinion.

I hope to hear more about this story. This is more entertaining than whatever is on TV right now.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 12:07 pm:

Bill,
I hadn't thought about that. Hmmm. . . Might even get me past smog??? (the rats ate the smog system hoses & wiring while it sits out by my storage garage).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 01:23 pm:

I think some of you old timers are selling this gal short. What would it cost you to replicate this car (minus the wood body)?....more than you seem to think it's currently worth. Some of you who have lots of parts stashed around may be able to do it cheap, but those of us who don't would spend a lot of money to make a copy of this car at todays prices. I hope she gets at least 2500 for it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 01:53 pm:

Gentleman, the car was left to the grandson (I misspoke about him being the son) in the will (the grandfather died a little over 20 years ago), so the grandmother (the little old lady) did not turn it over to the grandson recently. In fact, the grandmother knows how bad my son wants it and told him many times that if it were hers she do the deal.

The grandson thought the car was worth $8,000 to $12,000!!! That is, until my son and I saw it and told him different. I think the grandson sees dollar signs, as some of you suggested. The grandson appears to be in his 40s and appears to be a bit of a spoiled rich kid.

I'd love for my son to get it. He has a way with things mechanical, unlike his father. He grew up around antique cars and loves them.

We'll see what happens.
Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, mostly in Dearborn on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 02:02 pm:

Marty,

I saw this movie once where the grand daughter thought she was going to get this really cool Gran Torino as the lawyer read the will.......

oh, never mind.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 05:29 pm:

Don't jump and don't look anxious whatever you (or your Son) does. The Grandson is going for more $ by advertising and he might get to or over the $3 grand mentioned. Time does not appear to be a problem for him. Set your top $ price and stick to it. In my book it must run & have a title. Remember: it's a (possibly) running chassis and a top. That's it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Everett on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 05:41 pm:

Marty;

In case you didn't see what I wrote in the "T Values" thread, I cut-n-pasted it here.

I once saw a '17 roadster near Macon, MS, that had been innocently advertised as a "1912 Model T Roadster, Immaculate Condition!" in the Memphis paper. When my brother and I got there after a three hour drive, we were a little bummed it wasn't a '12, but decided to thoroughly enjoy the day anyway.

The lady that owned the car had been given it in a divorce settlement; the car was residing in the barn of a friend of her ex husband's. The car wasn't "in the way", but when I asked the farmer (the friend of the owner's ex husband) if he wanted to buy the car, he quickly said, "Oh, no. I have more than enough mechanical things around the farm to keep running." I asked, "Regardless of price?", to which the farmer replied, "Yes, regardless of price. Old cars are a great hobby; just not mine."

After about 5 hours, we had the roadster running on battery; the mag was not working. You wouldn't have believed the amount of blue/gray smoke filling that barn, and that's after we put new non-detergent oil into the engine!

After a while, I asked the owner how much money she wanted for the car; I figured that since it was a '17, and not a '12 advertised for $10,000 in the Memphis paper, she'd recognize the error and ask for less than $10,000.

"Oh, a couple of friends told me to not take less than $10,000 for it." Now, remember this was in March of 1989, and this car needed a rebuild on the engine, and maybe more; I'm no appraiser, but I believe that any member of this forum who might've been in the seller's position at the time, with that car, would've swallowed whole an offer in the $4,000 range.

Realizing that there would be no purchase that day, I said to the lady, as kindly as I could, "Yes, I understand how you feel. Many well-meaning friends and family members will frequently suggest a price that they're unaware of, is above what comparable cars sell for", I said.

Continuing, I suggested to her, "It might help you, in determining what price to ultimately accept for the car, to go back to those friends who recommended a hard-deck of $10,000, and offer the car to them for $8,000."

Taken aback, the seller said, "Why would I do that?", to which I responded, "I believe your friend(s), who, truly believing it to be worth $10,000 and happy to re-sell the car for $10,000, netting them $2,000, would reconsider their initial conception of what the car is worth, and should be sold for no less than $10,000.

In other words, they'd back pedal because they simply don't know the going market parameters for this type of antique car."

"What if they accept?", she asked. "If so, I'll give you the $2,000 difference", I said.

My brother and I had a wonderful time T'ing that day. I left my contact information with the seller, but never heard from her again.

I'd like to think the car found a good home.


It's understandable that sellers, hearing what they want to hear from people, especially their own friends / family members, talk themselves into believing that their car's worth, and selling price, are higher than the market. This is frustrating to all of us who love the Model T.

I support Gary Tillstrom's comments about the seller not recognizing, or at the least discounting, real money in front of them. I have a niece whose husband is the most careful buyer of everything I've ever seen; he never gets into a hurry. My favorite comment he made to a seller was, "I'm sorry if you refuse my first offer; my second one will be lower."

Keep us posted on the car, Marty.

Bill Everett


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 09:49 pm:

Of course I can't find the pic now but you know that period picture of the full gendered speedster that looks like it has Jay Leno in the driver's seat? This would be the perfect candidate to recreate that car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 09:54 pm:

Running-no less than $5500.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - 10:41 am:

Gentleman, thanks for all your advice and knowledge. As I say, we're now in a holding pattern until the grandson makes his moves.

Tom Miller, "Gran Torino" was a great movie but the final scene you mention was the best!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Miller, mostly in Dearborn on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - 11:13 am:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJLbR9TEMD8

Start at 0:50


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman Bolz on Wednesday, June 15, 2016 - 12:21 pm:

He sounds a lot like the guy at the old car
festival but looks a lot younger. Did the
guys son get the car yet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 05:07 pm:

Well, it sold. The family pulled it out during their estate sale last weekend with a sign on it that says it runs and they would take $6,000 or best offer. On Monday my son called the son who owns the car to find out the outcome. The owner said he also posted it on Craigs list and it sold for $6,400!

Thanks for all your help.

Also, if you're going to watch the youtube link above in Miller's post, you'll need to go to about :52 to see my scene.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 05:40 pm:

About double what I would think it's worth, but I'm known to be CHEAP! (my 3 cents worth!)
Well, now you can move onto other adventures!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 09:34 pm:

Get it running and give it a bath. Ask $5495 and see what kind of deal you can make. One man's junk is another man's treasure. You think that wood body is not so hot, another might think its pretty unique and looks good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freighter Jim on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 11:14 pm:

Ted,

It SOLD for $6400.00


Freighter Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 11:31 pm:

There's a sucker born every minute.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Freighter Jim on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 11:50 pm:

No ....

There is a new home for every Model at to be found.

Just because someone is willing to pay more for a car than you are - does not make them a " sucker " ......

Enough with the Negativity .....


Freighter Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jared Buckert on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 08:36 am:

Marty, sorry to hear about missing out on the car. I hope the new owner appreciates it for what it is, instead of seeing dollar signs as the previous owner did. I really hope it doesn't end up on eBay with a $12,000 start bid on it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 09:00 am:

Sorry I don't agree. We might never know but I'm leaning towards a newbie with deep pockets. No body that knows T's would have laid out that much $ for that car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 10:17 am:

You're dead on Charlie. Think that's exactly what happened.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan B on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 10:43 am:

That's insane.

For $1000 more in asking price (probably less in reality) you could get something like this that sold over on the classifieds.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/3487/642340.html?1466698435

No doubt it will show up somewhere with a description that says something like "All original, rare wood body".

I hope your son finds what he is looking for. The classifieds on this site are a great place to find cars with reasonable asking prices.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 11:53 am:

I hope this family paid you and your son for getting it running. That is what priced it out of range for your son and allowed them to pull strong money out of it. $500 sent to your son would be reasonable I think. I don't think it would have pulled $5900 non running. They owe you.

I will never again get a T running for someone without payment. I have spent too many Saturdays helping someone get one going only to find the truth (they have no intention of keeping it, only wanting to sell).

That T is no different than selling a house that needs work. If they can't do it on their own, they are on the hook to pay someone who can.

There is a reason plumbers, electricians, HVAC guys aren't free. They are worth their time. My free time is worth $50 an hour. If I'm fooling around with someone elses T then there is my own stuff I'm not doing. Just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 04:20 pm:

Thanks, guys. My son was, of course disappointed. He wanted to either find a body for it or turn it into a speedster. He, unlike his father, has mechanical ability.

Gary, yes, he got paid for getting it running (I was there helping). But Marty (my son) charged the guy $100.

Like I told Marty, it wasn't meant to be and another will come along. (Anyway, he'll end up with one of my antique cars when I'm gone!!)


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