My Electric Cranked Coil Tester is an original HCCT that has had a GE / Westinghouse washing machine motor added. Does anyone have an original motorized coil tester? I am interested in what the RPM and horsepower of the electric motor is, and also the pulley size on the motor.
My unit, from the Fred Lau collection via Kim Dobbins:
Royce, is that a wash machine motor? 1/3 or 1/4 hp, 1725 RPM? Mike
a sewing machine motor might be enough
Pulley on the motor currently is 2 1/2" the magneto diameter is 14.75" which yields a 0.1694915254237288:1 ratio. The motor is 1725 RPM / 1/3 HP.
So the magneto on my tester is spinning at 292 RPM which seems reasonable. I just want to know how this compares to original motorized units?
I'll measure mine later today:
Royce. My original coil tester as you posted has a Gen.Elec.Co. 1/4 HP 1725 rpm motor. The outside dia. of the pulley is 2 in.
this one is mine , bought it a few years ago
Royce etal - see
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/589019.html?1448851835
Original motorized coil testers ran at 60 RPM's.
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/440096.html?1398612659
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/25062.html?1172845899
I have one that I've had for over 40 years, but it's the earlier design with the space for the coil down below. It is just the old picture above, but the flywheel has a groove cut in it, and the belt runs on that. It has the same switch and motor. Who knows? I have a picture, but can't seem to bring it up!
Here is the picture:
Here is my Allen Electric HCCT. I may attempt to motorize it this fall. So, I have to keep my eyes open for a usable motor. What kind of belt are you using? Looks like a flat one that just slips over the outside of the flywheel and on a flat pulley mounted on the motor? Where did you pick up the belt? Thanks Mike
Mike it is a 1" flat belt, probably from a washing machine application? It came with the tester. The pulley on the motor end is a standard early T crank pulley that has been adapted to the shaft of the motor.
This coil tester only requires 1FP (1 Finger Power) to operate yet accurately tests coil firing time at 2000 RPM where ignition timing really counts and no moving parts!
(Message edited by mkossor on June 10, 2016)
(Message edited by mkossor on June 10, 2016)
Local Tin Lizzie club member set up my coils with the ECCT which gave fantastic results in my 27 coupe.
Give us a break kossor.
Oh come on Royce, lighten up. Please. Let's all play nice. Bill
Bill,
kossor infomercial is tedious and out of place. It does not have relevance and is not helpful to the discussion. His device is cheap plastic junk.
I believe that both devices can be used; however, the motorized tester can be used for all types of Ford coils (with some modification for the early coils).
Now, back to Royce's original question please. This is a good thread on the early coil testers.
I'm impressed with the pics of all the early testers..
Royce you opened the can with your wording of Electric CCT.. What did you expect? It was certainly below someone of your expertise to call Mikes device a "Piece of cheap plastic junk"
It's far from Cheap and Certainly not JUNK..
Thanks for getting me into this and Thanks Mike for your post now lets see some more Vintage machines
The effort and speed of coil tester operation seemed relevant to mention and completely agree it is cheap, compared to an HCCT, but the clear polycarbonate safety shield is the only part made solely of plastic. The bulk of it is made from durable fiberglass that will never rust like the black oxide stainless steel screws. It is unfortunate a precision instrument Made in the USA specifically for the Model T hobby is refereed to as "Junk" here; because it insults scores of satisfied users who know differently and is a strong deterrent to new folks considering making new products for the hobby.
Hey Royce..... How are you going to use your home A/C powered electric motorized coil tester during a electric grid power failure ??????? Don't be lazy, crank the damn thing by hand, just like the T engine that Henry made.
The ECCT will work without home A/C electric, good old battery power will power accurately. Try it, you'll like it !!!
Oh, by the way, the answer to your original post, IMHO is to keep the RPM's not to exceed 60 rpm......pulley size ??? depends on the rpms of the electric motor to achieve the 60 rpms at the flywheel.
Bob Jablonski
The cheaply made plastic ECCT is incapable of detecting double sparking coils. So any coils set on that device don't work well in the car on MAG. One of our club members set a bunch of coils on the kossor device, and we then tested them in a car, on an HCCT, and in a Strobe - O - Spark.
The HCCT and the Strobe - O - Spark consistently produced good working coils. The plastic ECCT did not produce good working coils.
The coils set in the plastic ECCT run badly in the car on MAG. The plastic ECCT set coils (50% of the sampled units) double spark.
Image of a double sparking coil on a HCCT provided by Bob Scherzer:
Oddly enough, the plastic ECCT often could not even produce a spark on certain coils. We quickly realized that the cheap aluminum contacts were not touching the coil contacts unless you held pressure against the coil to force contact. This is not an issue with real wood and metal devices that use Ford copper contacts.
Anyways, decide for yourself. Try the ECCT, then take a look at how badly the coils work in a car, or on a real coil testing device like an HCCT.
I took videos of the car running on plastic ECCT coils, and then with a set of coils rebuilt by John Regan in 2007. The plastic ECCT set coils run rough on MAG, one cylinder does not fire reliably until it gets up to cruising speed, causing a loss in power at most driving speeds.
Coils set on the plastic ECCT:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNJ1AZfN4iw
Coils set in 2007 using a good coil tester:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XEeGo34e3Sc
Failure to follow instructions will always have poor results.
ECCT will detect double or triple testing sparks and the instructions will guide the user to correct and properly adjust for strong single test sparking.
Your self devoted mission to mislead is getting old, not appreciated.
Yet you praise Regan's electronic coil tester ????
Bob Jablonski
P.S.
Stick & stones ...... you know the rest......maybe ??
Bob,
The coils were set on Mr Kossor's device with coaching from him personally. They were not set by me.
We compared coils set on the plastic ECCT with coils set by the following:
Ron Patterson
John Rgan
Brent Mize
Calgary Model T Club
Dennis Sanford
Royce Peterson (me)
All of the coils set by the individuals and groups above - and set on either an HCCT or a Strobe - O - Spark produced acceptable coils that did not double spark and run well in a car on MAG.
So far as any of us could tell the plastic ECCT has no way to detect a double sparking coil. So apparently it is not malfunctioning, as there is no function to secure that information?
Bob, I did not start this thread to discuss the ECCT. But if you insist......
I don't get the hate. More going on here than just different methods of setting coils.
Gentler words turn away wrath. Try it sometimes.
Everyone has a personal opinion - right or wrong. You know the rest of the saying...
Please start a new thread on the merits of the ECCT if you like, but I think Royce's original question was answered.
Everyone go home. Like an accident scene...Nothing to see here folks.
Let's get back to being the friendly Model T club that we
represent.
It is very interesting that many of the racers and those that have won the Montana 500 have used the "plastic" coil tester with good results. There must be something good about the Plastic...
YMMV, Like Mike H, Bob and Dennis suggests Why all the Bad Mouthing a product?
Gene,
I have offered only facts. This discussion was not my idea . The more times you respond the more people will see it, which is good for the hobby.
You and anyone else can get the same results doing a comparison of coils set on the various devices.
Just a question, but if function is more important than appearance why not use a 3 phase 1/3 or 1/2 hp motor with a variable frequency drive and set the RPM's to what ever you wish? This type of use is what VFD's are great at and the small ones are cheap.
Bob,
Agreed. I found an AC motor controller on eBay that sounds like it will work fine. It is rated at 15 Amps / 115 volts which should work fine with this little 1/3 HP 115 volt motor. Will advise how it works after it gets here.
Mike Kosser,
Thanks, for the intentional thread drift that turned this interesting conversation about antique coil testers, into the usual pissing contest over your controversial device. For the record, it's your tone on this forum that has turned me away form your products.
Just possessing a quality tool does not make one proficient in its use. Coil adjustment does require knowledge and skill as anyone who is familiar with Model T coils well knows. Very sorry to learn of difficulty with learning to properly adjust coils using the ECCT. I know from the questions asked the learning curve was steeper than typical. Please know your club representative, Dennis, can return the ECCT for a 100% full refund (including shipping) if not satisfied but will be the very first to ever do so; all other ECCT users to date have reported equal or better engine performance using ECCT adjusted coils.
The ECCT absolutely does detect double sparking maladjustment at normal engine speeds. Double sparking at abnormally slow, hand cranked, engine speeds and without timer function does not represent normal Model T engine operation; Model T engines do not operate at 60-120 RPM hand cranked speed!
In actual testing, coils set with the ECCT were double sparking with no indication of that fault from the plastic unit.
It is clear Mike that you have no idea what the hand cranked coil tester does or why it works, or you would not be saying what you said above. The hand cranked coil tester at 60 RPM causes the coil to spark at many multiples the rate of a T engine operating at 60 RPM.
When a coil is operating on an engine it has a timer giving the coil permission to spark at certain intervals. The timer, being mounted to the front of the engine, runs at 1/2 crankshaft speed. The coil only fires once per every two engine revolutions.
A coil being tested on a hand cranked coil tester on the other hand has no timer, and the coil fires when it reaches the current that it is set to fire at regardless of any other factor.
So far as we can determine the little plastic device makes no attempt to duplicate the conditions of the coil operating properly, and seemingly is not capable of detecting proper coil functionality. Coils set on the plastic ECCT double spark which leads to rough engine operation on MAG.
The hand cranked coil tester at 60 RPM produces 8 positive and 8 negative pulses. All 16 pulses are produced with abnormally low voltage and abnormally slow rise time at 60 RPM compared with typical engine speeds. The lack of a timer function also subjects the coil under test to abnormal operating conditions by never permitting the coil to rest in between firings. These limitations are the reasons other coil testers were developed as John Regan explains in his coil testing videos. It is not uncommon for coils properly set up on one of these other coil testers to produce a double spark on the HCCT cranked at abnormally slow engine speeds, 60 RPM.
Here is a plot illustrating the abnormally low voltage and abnormally slow rise time of the HCCT output cranked at a brisker rate of 120 RPM (blue trace) compared with magneto output at typical engine speed (1000 RPM) (red trace) and 12V battery operation (green trace). Note that 12V battery operation more closely mimics magneto output at typical engine speeds compared with the HCCT output cranked at a brisk rate.
Coils are set properly on a hand cranked coil tester. Coils set on the plastic device don't operate properly, regardless of the hype and graphics.
We should put all this in an article for the Vintage Ford and the Model T Times. The T hobby needs to see a real three way comparison in detail. Certainly the hobby will benefit by knowing the truth about coil testing.
Is there a possibility there is a plastic box that will make my T a google driver-less car? It has to be a two wire connection.
One wants to talk about facts ???? I believe, thru his negativity, one person has " sparked " considerable interest in Mike's contribution to the Model T hobby.
Allegations of poor ECCT coil calibration compared to other ways should be found false after viewing Mike's You Tube ECCT videos.
Link: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWdkl-fesF2O6-bZrJo633Q.
60 R.P.M's is correct.
All I know is that everyone local who has had his or her coils done by Ron Patterson is happy with them.
The injection of one's own self interest commercial project to incite sales is truly trolling. If Mike wants to interest those who like modern tools for testing coils then he should create his own new topic and not be the Alice's Restaurant Officer Opie who uses ".... twenty-seven 8 x 10 colored Glossy photographs with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the back of Each one explainin' what each one was,...." to prove that it works differently than the original topic being discussed.
I for one will save my money and encourage my friends to save their money to not to buy the device. I have always been skeptical people who present stuff the way the plastic tester has been presented.
With all the unrest in this country (and the world) I truly wish we could play "nice" in this sandbox.
Peanut butter and jelly sandwiches are enjoyed by many, yet some are deathly allergic to nuts....yet we seem to tolerate those differences without complaint.
In the spirit of friendship and happiness - if that is possible - can't we all just get along with each other's likes and dislikes?
I have tested Rons coils on my ECCT and they are good. I then ran them at different rpms and they drifted a little with a warm up. Not unexpected. I can test the capacitor giving you leakage values in ohms cap value etc. so you know of pending problems. I can see double sparks and get a graph of where they are in the firing cycle. To check the cap is a push of the button with open points. Then another click to change spark counts or rpm. I can idle the coil or run it up full throddle.
I will stick with my ECCT AS WILL OTHERS WHO SEE IT IN ACTION
Royce:
What RPM does your motorized coil tester rotate ??? Seems to be a working unit as pictured.
Greg,
Yep, have seen the little plastic unit in action. When you test coils set by Ron Patterson or Brent Mize on an ECCT, it fails them. Crazy.
To correct some misinformation in Mike Kossor's post above, the electrically cranked coil tester is causing the coil to spark 16 times per revolution. As Kohnke stated above (thanks for getting back on topic), the correct RPM for a motorized coil tester is 60 RPM, which means the coil sparks 960 times per minute while being tested.
The Model T engine develops maximum torque and horsepower at 900 RPM. At 900 RPM each coil is firing 112 times per minute.
The coil has to fire when cranking the car on "MAG" in order to be able to start the car. The coil also must spark at top speed. The HCCT or the motorized Electrically Cranked Coil Tester is capable of detecting a double sparking coil. It provides a superior test of coil performance by an actual Model T magneto.
The little plastic device fails to detect double sparking coils, and results in erratic coil settings, which of course do not come close to correct settings on a HCCT, and result in a poorly operating Model T .
Bob,
I posted that above. I said "Pulley on the motor currently is 2 1/2" the magneto diameter is 14.75" which yields a 0.1694915254237288:1 ratio. The motor is 1725 RPM / 1/3 HP.
So the magneto on my tester is spinning at 292 RPM......"
Which is way too fast. Kohnke correctly stated 60 RPM as the appropriate speed, and Bob Shirley had the great idea to buy a frequency control for the motor, which I ordered on eBay right after reading his post.
Sorry Royce, didn't remember your subsequent post after. Rheostat would help solve problem, either search for a smaller diameter motor pulley, or a smaller electric motor.
I stated the 60 rpm limit for the HCCT.
Anyone else have question on your statement ....
"The coil has to fire when cranking the car on "MAG" in order to be able to start the car. The coil also must spark at top speed. The HCCT or the
""" motorized Electrically Cranked Coil Tester"""
is capable of detecting a double sparking coil. It provides a superior test of coil performance by an actual Model T magneto. "
Motorized Electrically Cranked Coil Tester ?????
Have you reviewed the You Tube videos on the ECCT coil adjustment procedures ??
Bob J.
Bob,
No I did not watch any ECCT videos, because I was not setting any of the coils on the ECCT. The fellow who set those coils studied all the directions and videos, and spent time on the phone with Mr. Kossor to make sure he was doing it all per the instructions.
Bear in mind that all the coils in question were rebuilt from cores sourced at swap meets and other places, not good coils sourced from running cars. It was necessary for each coil to be fitted with an out of the box set of new points from various sources. All had new capacitors installed of the proper value, yet the plastic ECCT lit up its bad capacitor light on every coil.
There were no double sparking coils detected by the plastic ECCT device, but they could easily be detected on an HCCT, a motorized Electrically Cranked Coil Tester tester like mine, or a Strobe O Spark.
Coils set using the plastic ECCT were erratic when tested on the other two devices, and half of them double sparked. Not good.
Bottom line if you want a good running T have the coils checked and adjusted on a good tool like a HCCT, Motorized Electrically Cranked Coil Tester, or a Strobe O Spark. Any of those devices will produce coils that test good on any of the other two.
Ahhh,.......boy! It just goes on and on! Kossor, Peterson, Jablonski, Clinton & Trump! What can I say,......., right?
Harold, Ahhh,....boy ...taking a deep breath myself...I'm tired of all the negativity from Royce on a product I've personally used and has a great reliability factor that equals and/or exceeds results from my HCCT. These are only tools, only as good as the knowledge of the operator.
I'll repeat.....Failure to follow instructions will always have poor results.
ECCT will detect double or triple testing sparks and the instructions will guide the user to correct and properly adjust for strong single test sparking.
Royce's self devoted mission against Mike Kossor to mislead is getting old, not appreciated. His history has been documented on this Forum...anyone interested can do their own search.
Yet he praises Regan's electronic coil tester ????
Bob Jablonski
P.S.
Stick & stones ...... you know the rest......maybe ??
BOB, YOU GOT THAT RIGHT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Harold, AMEN!!!!!!!
Royce - my motorized KRW tester has a G.E. motor - 1/3 hp - 1725 rpm with a 2" drive pulley. It appears to be original BUT the motor on mine is on the opposite side as the advertisements ??? There are no "extra" holes in the tester platform either but that doesn't mean it's been replaced in the past. Somewhere around here, I have a Starrett (sp) rpm gauge - I'll have to find it and see what mine spins at.
Steve,
Thanks I would love to know what your device clocks. Mine is not originally a motorized unit, so don't look at mine and think that yours is wrong.
Gene, Bob,
God is my witness. I don't have anything to gain in this life or the next one by making up a story about anything. We have one of those plastic devices here that belongs to another member of the local club. We can film a video (not me, but someone with skills at that sort of thing) to document it so that there can be no question.
The statement: "the correct RPM for a motorized coil tester is 60 RPM, which means the coil sparks 960 times per minute while being tested" is correct but that does not mean the magneto is operating at 960 RPM. The magneto is operating at 60 RPM which supplies the coil under test with an abnormally low voltage and abnormally slow rise time and without a timer; does not permit the coil under test to rest between firings as I have correctly stated.
These are limitations of the HCCT method and the inspiration for me (and John Regan according to his videos) to provide Model T enthusiasts with a superior coil test method should they desire to use one. Some folks automatically conclude I am condemning the HCCT and criticizing the folks who choose to use it; I never did either.
A properly adjusted ECCT coil may very well produce double sparks when tested on an HCCT at abnormally slow hand crank speeds. That is moot because a Model T engine does not operate at 60 or 120 RPM! What really matters is how the coil and engine perform at normal operating speeds, and especially at its top end where ignition timing really matters. Literally scores of individuals have tested the ECCT and ECCT coil performance over the last 3 years and have consistently reported performance results equal to or better than other coil test methods.
Royce's relentless fixation of spewing misinformation and outright lies to discredit my contributions to the Model T hobby on this pubic is indeed getting old and is about time it stops.
No dog in this hunt but I'll offer this. This winter our chapter had a maintenance seminar. Coils were rebuilt with new condensors and fitted with new points. They were then adjusted on my HCCT to get sixteen single sparks. When compared to the Strobo spark, some of those would occasionally throw a double. Once corrected to single spark and put back in the HCCT they were still single spark. I concluded the strobo spark will get them more closely aligned with correct operation. The HCCT got them to operate at 99% which is good enough for most folks.
If I had no method to set coils, I would buy the fun projects tester. It really is well designed.
Royce, thanks for starting this post it saved me $345.00. I had one of the plastic testers in my saved searches on ebay. The posts by mike changed my mind. Respectfully, charlie haeckel
Ah, too funny. People can't intelligently argue about anything else so now you're bitching about plastic. It's pathetic but bloody entertaining for sure!
Regards all,
Garnet
When I got the coil tester that I posted the photo of, I never thought I'd own a late T, so I re-worked the wood inserts to fit 1913 KW coils only. Then, I decided to build an authentic '25 roadster, and had to build a special box to test the late coils. It is posted in my photo. You just never know! I bought one of John Regan's upper coil point benders, and it works great for adjusting the cushion spring.
When I built my motorized coil tester, I used a variable speed DC motor that I stole off of a dead treadmill. I drive it with a variac run through a bridge rectifier. It will go from "zero rpm's" to "you don't want to be in the same room as it speed".
Any notion that the ECCT cannot detect multiple sparking is absurd. I did extensive testing on a fellow club member's ECCT (no personal or financial incentive one way or another as to the results). Viewing the coil current waveform on an oscilloscope clearly showed if there was multiple sparking, and in all cases the ECCT showed this in the results.
The criticisms aimed at the ECCT here seem to be not from someone who has actually used the instrument. Thus, it is not known how it was actually used where erroneous results were claimed. The inability to get satisfactory capacitor test results with new capacitors tends to raise a query on that point. This is one area of the ECCT that I spent quite some time familiarising myself with, and can guarantee that if the test is done correctly, with a new capacitor, and the wood is not electrically leaky, it will pass.
It is interesting to note that when I designed my own electronic tester, unbeknown to the details of the ECCT at the time, I came to exactly the same conclusions as Mike, as to how it should work. Logically, the coils should be tested at normal engine speeds, adjusted for equal dwell time, and not suffer from multiple sparking.
The ultimate proof of course is in the driving performance, but my main attraction to the method is knowing that each coil takes the same amount of time to fire when the timer makes contact.