Rod or something broke through the block!

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Rod or something broke through the block!
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:00 am:

Well that was short lived! Driven around the neighborhood a few times without problems. Drove this morning about 5 miles at about 30 - 40 mph.

It knocked or banged nearing my destination. On the way home it got worse. At about 25mph it calmed but still knocked until it cracked and banged and broke. I drifted into a school parking lot and waited for AAA.

Something broke thru the block as you can see in the picture.

Just sharing the misery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:05 am:

Oh no! So sorry to see and hear that. Let us know what you find, perhaps you just joined the two piece crank club.

Was it the original block? :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:18 am:

When a piece of machinery "talks " to me, I've learned it is a good idea to listen.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnCodman on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:22 am:

I have to agree with Les.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Van Evera in the U.P. of MI. on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:54 am:

If that's an early block (more valuable...) it can probably be "metal stitched" for the repair. Done right, it won't leak and will be unnoticeable. It will, however, be pricey. Id' say, "just my two cents worth" but having had this repair done in the past, I don't have two cents left to my name!!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:57 am:

Robert you have my sympathy. Now you know why Scat cranks are so popular.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 11:01 am:

Put your walking shoes on and go find the piece that broke out. Unless things are really bad inside that block can be saved, maybe. There have been postings of blocks that were worse stitched back together. Have even seen photos of blocks that had a patch mounted to the side with screws/bolts.
I don't see any oil dripping, were you not getting oil to the front or really low on oil?
That is a real bummer!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 11:01 am:

Royce
Sure sounds like a rod!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Hanson on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 11:31 am:

I am so sorry, Robert. That is terrible news.

When my 1912 block cracked for the second time last year, I replaced it with a 1916 block and added a starter. At first, it was a downer not having the original block in the car. After a while though having the starter actually made the car more a pleasure to drive. In the long run, it may be an option for you to consider as well. I still have the original block if I want to roll the dice again and repair a third time.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 11:43 am:

Les it could be. The early heavy rods are ticking time bombs too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 11:45 am:

AARRGHH! What a revolting development!
Put into the shop. Go into the house, set back, and have a cup of tea. Then look over the damage. Looks probably repairable.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 11:47 am:

Looks like a rod came through. To find the reason, you will need to pull things apart. It could have been a broken crankshaft, or it could have just been the rod itself.

Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 12:24 pm:

Like les says! I heard a knock starting fifteen miles from home. With a gentle throttle and much attention to any power applied limped home pulled the pan cover and checked the bearings. All was OK so took another two mile drive with more throttle----Blew the crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Warren F Rollins on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 12:27 pm:

Robert, You ruined my day. Hope it is repairable. Let us know when you found out what caused the failure. Sorry this happened. Good luck to you.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kenneth W DeLong on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 12:27 pm:

Like Mark said,go find that piece of the block before it's lost!! Bud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gene Carrothers Huntington Beach on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 12:35 pm:

That's not near as bad as when the crank blows and takes out the rear of the block. Looks like it'll be a pretty easy fix but not cheap. Maybe it's a later block but sure is a nice looking car!

When something is knocking that means it time to stop before it all goes bad. So I hope this a lesson to ALL of us.

Good luck with your repairs and let us know what you find


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 12:55 pm:

Ditto. Find and save all of the pieces from that hole. If all the pieces are not there, Go back out to where it happened and walk the road until you find the pieces. Cast Iron can be welded by an experienced welder. God luck. Jim Patrick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 01:01 pm:

Ouch, man that sucks. OK, it's time to get to work, lesson learned. Find that piece if you can. The block is almost certainly repairable, with a large cash infusion. I am finishing up a 1910 that looked like a grenade went off in the crankcase. Both ends and both sides of the block have pieces sectioned in from donors. It is a work of art done by Lock-N-Stitch of Turlock, Ca. A shame to paint it, I have said before. We had to line bore the cam bearings when done, amongst other things. Anyway it can be done and should be. Put it back together with a Scat crank and straight pan and reliable touring is in the future. Sorry to hear of your misfortune. This too shall pass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert Poane on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 02:20 pm:

Thank you for your sympathy guys! I will go look for the piece that broke off.

I am considering options like fixing it if I find the part and letting the next guy pay to rebuild it. Then buy a late teens or 20's engine like you suggested.

This broken engine was restored with a starter. It is the original engine block beginning with #144......

I will get back when I know what I am doing.

Bob


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 03:15 pm:

Robert, if you can't find the piece, look toward having the bad section cut out and new material stitched in. I've seen some of the work Lock-N-Stitch has done. It is truly impressive.

I've got a couple Model T blocks with cracked water jackets. I've thought about investing in a Lock-N-Stitch kit to try learning a new skill. It's spendy but if I can save a block there's some value in it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 04:02 pm:

Michael;
If you can drill a hole, tap it, screw the plug in, cut it off and file off the stub you can do it. :-)
The one and only Model A block I did took around 72 plugs to do the crack(s) in a zig-zag pattern. It's quick to learn once you have installed a couple.
We do a pressure seal coat inside the block after installing plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jem Bowkett, Spalding United Kingdom on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 05:34 pm:

I had the rear main torn out and the side of the block cracked when I joined the 2 piece crank club. It all got metal-stitched and has survived several thousand miles. And that's an early block which the metal-stitch man told me is much poorer cast than the 11 and later blocks. Have faith, it can be fixed


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 06:30 pm:

My only concern with stitching the water jackets would be whether the material would be thick enough to make it work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 09:14 pm:

I traded a 1912 style block which had thrown no 1 rod out the side. There was a slot half way up the cylinder wall and a big hole in the apron of the block. The God of all cast iron welders had me fashion STEEL patch pieces which he bronzed in place. His take on the job was it much less likely to crack around the welds. A sleeve in that one bore sees that block sitting on my shelves as a spare for my 1912 Haighs chocolate van.

Gene, I have seen more than one episode where the sequence of events is in the reverse. The blocks develop a crack from the stress riser where the rear main bolts are tightened down, the block breaks and takes the crank with it. I wish others would look closely at such damage and consider the above. My machine shop took one look at a T block and commented, without my prompting, That the land for the rear main bolt nuts needed to be radiused between the vertical and horizontal surfaces.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 09:23 pm:

Sorry to hear about this Bob : ^ (

I hope you get your car back on the road soon!

-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:03 pm:

Get a different block, forget about repair of that one, it is toast.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 10:54 pm:

I think that hole looks too large to stitch and have any hope of it lasting. If I had a nice 1912 block I would call Erik Barrett, he does some amazing work on repairing cast iron by spray welding. I bet he can make it look new and be permanently repaired.

I see Erik commented earlier on this thread. I suggest you consult with him before doing Anything else!

TH


(Message edited by thorlick on June 11, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Saturday, June 11, 2016 - 11:32 pm:

Thanks, Terry, for the kind words. If I were to take on this project I would need to take a close look at it. My spray welding process does not lend itself to repairs in the middle of large castings, that requires heating the entire part with equipment I do not have. I am well aquainted with Irontite repairs stitching with pins. We have repaired lots of blocks with freeze cracks or other damage this way. A valuable early block casting requires attention by specialists. After that, I could take care of the rest. It can be done. Robert, keep the faith, you have done a great job on this car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 01:20 pm:

Suggest sending the block to Cast Iron Mike in Washington. All he does is weld cast iron using cast iron rod. His work is excellent and the price is fare. Not many welders around that can weld cast iron with out warping. I have had 3 REO cylinders welded using cast iron and you can not tell they were weld repaired.
The original port plugs still fit after extensive weld repair was done by Mike. The bearings will need re-pored as the whole block is heated before the broken/cracks are repaired. He has scrap cast iron that is used to replace broken out areas that are missing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 01:35 pm:

What Les V. says. Search on Google for "cast iron welding mtfca" and you will see photos of it being done. My 1-cyl. REO cylinder was welded that way. I've done several repairs myself using cast iron rod and oxy/acetylene torch. Once you try it you'll wonder why you didn't try it years ago. Once it is ground down and cleaned up, you can tell it from original metal.
Verne Shirk
Wichita, KS


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 05:26 pm:

I have a 1943 Farmall M which must have turned over and broken apart duriing WW II. Under the belly of the drive train there is a brazed repair that runs completely across and nearly halfway up each side. A person good with a torch might be able to repair your block with brass.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 08:49 pm:

Bob,

I’m so sorry that happened. After just tasting the sweet victory of finishing the restoration [ http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/649134.html?1465445705 ]
and now the agony of this. As stated early in the thread what a bummer. But your car still looks beautiful! And you don’t have near as much effort to get it going again as when you first started 2 ˝ years ago. You have many options concerning the engine. If the extra funds are available (they aren’t at my house which is why I’m not driving at the moment) I would recommend lean towards purchasing a spare engine & transmission while that one is repaired. That way you could enjoy driving the car while you determine who and how to have the original engine fixed. Note there is a very pitted 1912ish engine block on e-bay listed by Mark of Model T Haven – see:

Thank you for sharing your lesson with the rest of us. Many of the folks under 50 may never have heard an engine knock or seen a block with a thrown rod etc. Unless they are someone they knew let the engine run low on oil etc. The modern cars my family and my Dad’s family have had all kept running and running. I don’t recall of any 1946 or newer car that I have personally known the owner of that threw a rod, broke a crankshaft etc. (Ok – I did have one friend who had a drag racing car for a short time in the 1970s. He went through engines rather quickly on the 1/4 mile track. But his high performance daily driver never did – same engine and drove it a long time.) For any of us with a T or old car, if the engine starts to knock, it is time to shut it down and investigate what is causing the knock. If we don’t have time to find it and fix it, then calling the vulture truck is a good option. To my knowledge, shutting it down as soon as possible is almost always better than driving on hoping it hangs together. Some possible exceptions might be if the car was stopped on the railroad crossing with the train approaching or something similar to that.

In your posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/650113.html?1465702346 you shared, “I always wanted a brass T without doors. And I got it - somewhat late in life - thanks to goal setting, perseverance and wonderful wife and a grateful heart to God!- and I would like to thank the Academy - sorry couldn't resist.” I’m sure that same combination will get your T going again. I remember when I was in the military and I was “frozen from assignment consideration” and stuck at MacDill AFB. The base was converting to the newer F-16 aircraft and I was tasked to help close down the old F-4 aircraft squadrons. That was not good for my future or my morale. I kept thinking about a verse in the Bible that says, “And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.” (Rom 8:28 NIV - https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+8%3A28 ) But I would also often think of that line from the movie “Fiddler on the Roof” when Tevye was considering his plight. As he was looking toward heaven he spoke with God and said, “I know, I know. We are Your chosen people. But, once in a while, can't You choose someone else?” Well looking back at being “stuck at MacDill,” I went from “Why me Lord” to “Thank You Lord.” Why? Well I met this girl, who thought a lot of me, liked old cars, was willing to traipse around the world with me, and who became my wonderful wife. I’ve been out of the military quite a while now, but I’m still blessed by her love and support. She is actually helping me move the shelves away from the garage windows so the windows can be replaced. What a trooper. You already have a wonderful supportive wife, but keep an eye out – there may be some other surprise blessing waiting for you on the other side of this experience.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Thursday, June 16, 2016 - 10:51 pm:

What bad luck nice car though,very nice. Tim


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