Peening tool for main bearings

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Peening tool for main bearings
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 12:26 pm:

Who makes the peening tool when pouring new main bearings? I know I've seen them before, but can't remember which supplier I seen them at.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Husa on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 01:06 pm:

KR Wilson makes the vintage tool.
look at KR Wilson tools web site!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 01:38 pm:

Some including Mike Bender and Herm use an air chisel ground off with low air pressure Take a look at Mikes web site, slick!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John McGinnis in San Jose area, CA. on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 03:14 pm:

How about rods? Do you peen them too?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 03:22 pm:

Rods aren't peined because they are tinned. The mains aren't tinned.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 04:27 pm:

Peening is just making sure the Babbitt is tight to the surface. The locking holes hold the babbitt in place it's really not attaching to the cast iron block. The caps would be tinned so the babbitt does stick as are the rods. Peening should be done while the babbitt is still warm and pliable. When Tom does the Model A blocks he adds a few more locking holes and along the top edge some lock holes that the babbitt can flow into and lock it to the side.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 04:42 pm:

Silly question - why aren't / can't the mains be tinned to the block?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 07:27 pm:

You could but it would take a lot of heat to get the block up to tinning temperature. Rods and caps are more easily heated and tinned. In the mains the caps take the highest loads, much more so than the block.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 07:40 pm:

Tinning comes as powder, you only have to get hot enough to melt the powder to the surface then brush off the excess. I think it has to do with the material that the different parts are made of, cast iron vrs forged steel/iron.
Hope someone chimes in because I know some of the basics but not the practice, I am getting past my pay grade. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 10:26 pm:

Babbitt is held in place by two methods, mechanical or chemical.

Mechanical is use in the block due to the fact cast iron has a high content of carbon and will not accept the tinning process. There have been a lot of products that have been use and all seem to fail for bonding babbitt bearings.

The main caps like the rods are steel and a chemical bond (tinning) of babbitt is used.

Babbitt needs to be peen as soon as you can work with it, two things happen, the babbitt is move to conform with the block saddles and I feel that it helps swedge the it into the anchor holes. It may also have some impact on the compression of the babbitt itself, but that is just speculation on my part. Note the peening only applies to a mechanical bond and not used on main caps and rods that have been tinned.

I made my own peening tool, copied after the KR Wilson tool. After Herm showed his process on a thread some time back, I use it and feel that his process is the best method, so thanks Herm for the great tip.

Additional anchor holes in the block is kind of like wearing a belt and suspenders thing, not really needed on a standard Model T crank. However when installing a Model A or a Scat crank where boring out the block and caps to 1.700 I feel it is required as there is not much depth left to the anchor holes Henry provided even after drilling them deeper.

Just my opinions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, June 12, 2016 - 11:04 pm:

"Mechanical is use in the block due to the fact cast iron has a high content of carbon and will not accept the tinning process"

Mike,
That's not true, cast iron butchers equipment has been tinned for over 150 years, many radiators had and still do use cast iron spouts that are tinned and soldered etc, check out a T radiator. Tinning the mains isn't a big deal as long as the block is cleaned, caustic bath is best, and as far as heating a block, you only need to work that around the area you are tinning. Many a cracked block as been repaired by tinning.
A blumber doen't heat 20' of copper pipe to sweat on a fitting at one end!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 12:06 am:

Cast iron butchers equipment is indeed tinned as you point out. Not the same as bonding a bearing to cast iron.
I have repaired cracks in blocks water jackets with solder or babbitt sticks and it works but again not the same as bonding a bearing.
Removing as much of the carbon by any means helps, I even think I got some tin to stick on bearing saddles in a couple of blocks but for the most part it hasn't worked for me.
Me and my dog are out of this hunt. As stated Just my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 12:22 am:

No. 1 The anchor holes are not put in a shell to keep the Babbitt tight, that is what the peening is for. The anchor holes work the same as a Locking Lip on a modern insert. They keep the bearing centered and in the correct position.

I don't care how many extra anchor holes you add to a shell, past what was original, they will not hold the Babbitt, with out peening.

No. 2 Trying to tin a block is a big waste of time, and an all around bad practice, as there are to many temperatures to try to control, and it can't be done.

No. 3 The shells have to be a temp of 610 to 640, the Babbitt should be poured at 950, the problem is that with that kind of temperature, a block with new bored cylinders may warp.

The biggest thing is the shell has to cool before the Babbitt, and with a 630 degree block, you can't cool that much mass and leave the Babbitt molten. With the amount of cooling, another chance for cylinder warping.

Model T,A, B, and V-8's had the right amount of anchor holes, and you can't improve on it.

Dan, the pictures are for you.



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 12:32 am:

Wouldn't take two pictures, "Dan"



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 01:35 am:

Here you go Herm, 3 minutes work, tinned with babbitt. Bore cold enough to still put your hand on.
Maybe you should change your quote in # 2 from it can't be done, to, I can't do it!! because I don't have a problem!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 08:50 am:

Herm: Is the end of the tool flat or bullet nosed? What air psi do you run the tool? Thanks, Dan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By charley shaver- liberal,mo. on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 12:34 pm:

when i tin cast to fix a block an old radiator man showed me you must sandblast to remove the carbon from the surface, he even blasted brass . it sure works for me. charley


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 01:08 pm:

Not flat, and not bullet. It's in between, so the out side clears, and hits from the center to about ,06 tens of the way to the outside.


Frank, if you knew anything about babbitting, you wouldn't even be going here.

Any body can learn how to tin a block, the problem is bonding the Babbitt to the tinning, and getting a 100 percent bond, like on a steel rod, or cap.

Frank, it is temperature, temperature, temperature. There is more to it then pouring Babbitt in a hole. That is what separates you from real babbitters like James Rogers, and J and M Machine co.

No sense debating something that is very poor practice, and even Ford wouldn't, and didn't do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 01:58 pm:

Thanks Herm. That will save my shoulder. Dan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 05:38 pm:

Herm,
Ford actually did and tried babbitt pouring with hot and cold blocks, service bulletins for dealers was recommended to do cold pours and I'm sure if they had the right chemicals back in the day to clean up oil impregnated in the cast, tinning would have been done as well.
For you to imply that others don't know what they are doing, only shows how narrow mined you are!
Each to their own hey Herm!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James Michael Rogers on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 06:17 pm:

I agree 100% with Herm!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Butler Huntington Beach, CA on Monday, June 13, 2016 - 08:28 pm:

Herm: I too would like to know the psi you run. Also, if you ever have the chance to take a picture of the tool tip, it would be a great help. Thanks for all your tips!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 01:06 am:

40 P.S.I.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Sean Butler Huntington Beach, CA on Tuesday, June 14, 2016 - 03:06 am:

Awesome. Thanks!


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