Use 50% green coolant, or just water?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Use 50% green coolant, or just water?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 06:49 pm:

I've heard both... No problems so far according to motometer... 96' today


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Richard Eagle Idaho Falls on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 07:03 pm:

They tell me it is better to use antifreeze for rust inhibition. However I have used just water for Summer driving as my cars tend to push it out. I have not noticed any problems in 50 years of doing this but others may frown on it.
Rich


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Pawelek Brookshire, Texas on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 07:04 pm:

I use anti antifreeze in all my automobiles to keep the blocks from rusting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charles Weisgerber on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 07:11 pm:

I use 50-50 mix of antifreeze all year long. My T used to "push it out" too, found out that I was filling the radiator too full, no problems on 90+ days either. The car also has a newer flat tube radiator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 07:11 pm:

Thank You so much. Oh Well, sooner or later we should all have enough experience to come to a consensus on this. Hahaha

I'll run water until I have a cause for reconsideration, and drain it for storage.

How about Water-wetter? Anyone like it in their T?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 07:13 pm:

There was a time you could bore a T out upto .125" but over the years the blocks have thinned out from the water side, .080" is about max now, so for no other reason than corrosion, at least run an inhibitor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 07:17 pm:

Ok

Which inhibitor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 10:47 pm:

I use 50/50 antifreeze year round in everything. Tim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 11:03 pm:

I don't understand why some are reluctant to use antifreeze. If it prevents rust, why not?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 11:08 pm:

Steve,

There is no way to eradicate clueless folks. They don't understand how $10 worth of anti freeze can save them thousands of dollars. It is good for us. Smart people win.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, June 23, 2016 - 11:08 pm:

50/50 mix all year. Even my 1948 Ford F series truck manual says do not run without anti-freeze unless you use a rust inhibitor. Of course they suggest you buy Ford brand inhibitor. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n Los Angeles CA on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 02:49 am:

The coolant will thin the water a little bit, if you have a weepy radiator use less. I find 25%greenstuff and water do just as well. Unless you plan to leave it in all winter then use 50/50.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 08:44 am:

What kind of inhibitor? The kind that comes in a decent brand 50/50 mix. There's no way to make it any clearer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kurt Baltrusch on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 09:06 am:

Many people do not realize that straight water cools better than a 50/50 antifreeze mix, but of course boils at a lower temperature than an antifreeze mix. While antifreeze is sold as a "coolant" it mainly just increases the boiling temperature. Antifreeze is also attractive to pets, and as often the coolant is either pushed out the overflow (don't fill higher than needed)or sometimes leaks, it can be hazardous to pets. Ask me about that! (One of the treatments includes putting the pet on an Everclear (grain alcohol)drip for two days.) There is a pet friendly antifreeze if you can find it. I would like to find an non-antifreeze inhibitor that would prevent the rust if anyone knows of such a product.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 09:35 am:

50/50 mix is the way to go. Bottom line is it helps stop rust. Most people in this area use a 50/50 mix. I've noticed that when using a smaller amount of antifreeze in one of my T's.
The water was dirtier and pretty much dark brown. Meaning rust.
I hadn't driven the car for close to a year and had it in a storage bldg. out of the weather and cold.
I was was going to get it going again and checked the radiator and noticed the water was brown and murky. Not good. drained it out and used a 50/50 mix.

Using more antifreeze made a believer out of me.
Pretty much common sense in my opinion.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 09:53 am:

You really have no argument when you start moaning about anti freeze hurting pets - how on earth is a pet going to eat through the radiator hoses to get at it? It's inside the engine, and it is not anywhere else.

The other silly argument is that a mix of anti freeze and water does not cool as well as straight water. That argument is based on flawed thinking. When your block and radiator are full of rust nothing will keep them cool. Using plain water, or water mixed with anything other than anti freeze is just going to doom your block and radiator.

See here where I fixed a $10,000 engine that has anti freeze in it today:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/270852.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By george house . . .caldwell county, TX on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 11:22 am:

Like most everyone else, I use a 50/50 mix of anticreeze/water too. And, like most everyone else, I thought antifreeze should be green. Earlier this year I traded for a '29 Ford open pickup. My first Model A after 50 years of Model Ts. It barfed a green foam from under the quail radiator cap. I mentioned this to a local and noted Model A mechanic and he said to only use orange antifreeza. I did. It works and this is the only antique of mine using orange antifreeze. Don't know why....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 11:53 am:



Most tap water contains all kinds of dissolved lime and other garbage constituents which tend to solidify as a crusty deposits that joyously clog up radiator tubes, so as far as I'm concerned, that's a "no go."

Distilled water has no impurities at all, but the stuff promotes rust like crazy—another "no go."

Straight, 100% green antifreeze will protect your system from freezing almost for sure and it discourages the heck out of corrosion, but in its pure form, will not cool as well as antifreeze mixed with water. _Even the manufacturers, who would like you to use as much of their product as possible, recommend against such practice, so pure antifreeze is a "no go," too.

The exotic stuff like Evan's Waterless Coolant works, but requires a conversion ceremony to switch over from water-based coolant. _And for a car that tends to blow the excess out the overflow tube and then require an occasional top-off (perhaps along the way), this might be a too expensive, too fussy way to go—just my opinion, you understand.

For a non-brass Model T like your '24, a 50:50 mix of ordinary green antifreeze and distilled water is the simplest, least fussy way to go. _As needed during the driving season, just add either distilled water to it, or in a pinch, tap water. _At the end of the season, empty the system and either discard the coolant (in a Politically Correct manner, of course) or, if you're cheap like me, save it and pour the stuff (except the cruddy dregs at the bottom of the bottle) back in after the spring thaw.

Unrelated to your car; diluted or not, green antifreeze tarnishes the living daylights out of brass and very quickly at that, so if your radiator neck leaks (like mine does), make wiping up the little neon pearls a part of your post-flight ritual.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ALAN FAIRCLOUGH on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 12:05 pm:

Do NOT buy the $12 jug of 50/50 pre-mixed antifreeze.
Buy the $13 jug of 100% pure antifreeze and pour it in the radiator. Then fill the empty jug with rainwater and pour it in. Mixing is not an exact science. Now you have 24$ worth of 50/50 mix for only 13$.
Top up with rainwater as needed.
If you consider the jugs of distilled water at 1$ a jug, you are saving even more by using rainwater.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 12:36 pm:

I would prefer to use anti-freeze but worried that it might not cool or circulate as well. The users manual only mentions adding winter mix to avoid freezing radiator tubes.

Yesterday was 96° and I drove for about an hour fairly slowly and it only squirted a little bit of water out after I parked and my motometer indicated that it never reached the top, so I guess that it never overheated.

I will try again today with green antifreeze.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 12:41 pm:

I have an infrared thermometer that I can use to measure the temperature of different engine components from a distance. I will post some pictures of temperatures today and hopefully gain some insight from you experienced owners on here.

I'm wondering how to measure the water flow. The water appears clean but I just bought this car and would hate to discover blockage after it was too late.

The owners manual says to clean the system by simply running water through the radiator but I would also like to put some pressure through the block. Is a reverse flow in advisable for any reason? And most cars this pushes against any scaly build up and helps remove the flakes the rust.

I admit I am still a bit mystified by the circulation system, which is why I worried about reducing the boiling the fact that seems to be key to the water flow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 01:10 pm:

Chris, you suspected right. From what I've read, water with antifreeze doesn't cool as well as plain water. BUT the difference is negligible. The advantages of using the stuff far outweigh the tiny disadvantage (if that's what it is).

You don't want to put any pressure in the radiator, of course, but this page gives some information on flushing the block: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG96.html.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phillip Maurici on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 01:11 pm:

8:1 compression, live in Florida, and I run 50/50 that I mix myself. Walmart has full strength anti-freeze for $9.99 per gallon. If you want to spend a little bit bore buy Evans coolant for $49 per gallon. It boils at 360 degs F. Fill it once and forget it. Google it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 01:19 pm:

Royce - Allow me to add one more "silly argument" to yours:

I believe that there is one more silly "myth" that persists,....and that is the mistaken belief that anti-freeze leaks more readily than water.

This is a silly "myth", but there is a good reason why it persists:

There are those that either don't know, or, can't be convinced that anti-freeze doesn't leak any more than water. It's just that where a single drop of anti-freeze that leaks from somewhere is much more likely to be "NOTICED" than a single drop of water. That is because the single drop of water will never be seen, because it evaporates almost immediately from engine heat and air flow an such, whereas a single drop of anti-freeze will sit there, plainly visible for a long, long time, simply because it evaporates so slowly. Again there are those that either don't know that, or, for some reason, just will not believe it. Think of evaporation of a drop of water as compared to evaporation of a single drop of honey. Maybe a poor analogy, but same idea.

Anyway, for what it's worth,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 05:18 pm:

Harold,
That would be one "silly argument" you would lose
As my family has been involved with the radiator industry for some 50 years and if you run a strong mix of anti-freeze, it eats solder!
Todays radiators are mainly aluminium, that usually takes the life time of the car to be affected.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kurt Baltrusch on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 06:14 pm:

Sorry, guys, I was not trying to start an argument nor was I recommending what to use in your cars. I was simply stating a few fats that I thought might be helpful to others. The first is that many think that antifreeze sheds heat better than straight water, and that is not correct. However, as stated, corrosion can severely inhibit heat transfer and antifreeze has additives to protect against corrosion. Also, antifreeze raises the boiling point. Of course, once water boils, cooling is significantly lessened. There are products, such as Water Wetter, that are designed to improve heat transfer in antifreeze.

My other comment concerned pets, and often at long, slow moving parades on hot days, or even at car shows, you see antifreeze on the pavement. One time we returned from an event and our dog got sick. Luckily, the vet had seen enough antifreeze poisonings to know what to do and had materials to treat her, but she was in ICU for 3 days. We were not sure where she got the stuff, but animals are attracted to it, and it is more of a problem as it does not quickly evaporate. I don't think she chewed on any radiators.

Finally, as a pipeline engineer, we used cathodic protection to slow corrosion on pipelines, either through impressed DC current or with sacrificial(zinc) anodes. You can buy radiator anodes at any of the suppliers and they may help lessen corrosion. We also used polyethylene pipelines which did not corrode but there are instances of gophers chewing through the pipelines to get at the odorant in the gas, so maybe some dogs might eat radiators. Who knows? However, while the gophers could be successful in puncturing the PE pipes, they were quickly asphyxiated by the gas!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 06:48 pm:

What about the orange stuff mentioned earlier? There are different anti-freezes on the market nowadays, is one better for our Ts than the other; is there one we should avoid?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 06:49 pm:

Kurt,

The radiator anodes are a joke, and they do not provide anything except magnesium oxide residue trapped in your cooling system, clogging radiator tubes and wasting your money. There is not any chance of corrosion if you simply put a 50/50 or thereabouts mix in your radiator.

No coolant leaks out of any of my cars ever, and they don't overheat in parades at 110 degrees and sometimes hotter. Ever been in Tucson on the 4th of July driving a T? I have. No need for water wetter either - any T runs cool if it is tuned properly and has a good radiator.

Yes indeed plain water transfers heat slightly better - but you would be a fool to use plain water, so what is the point? You want a T engine that does not rust, and cools well. You could argue all day and not come to any other reasonable conclusion.

Stuff that works and is cheap is really popular when dealing with Model T's and the folks who operate them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Eliason...........Whittier, CA on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 08:55 pm:

Re; orange antifreeze, the newer 'Long Life' products, which may be orange or other colors, are called Organic Acid Technology. They have developed a reputation for causing damage to copper and to lead-based solder, which is what our radiators are made of. Apparently the O.A.T. is OK for aluminum radiators in the newer cars it is intended for. Beware, the label on some of the O.A.T. products claim they are proper for all cars, but if you dig deeper in the manufacturer's info, they usually recommend the conventional green for copper/solder radiators.

'Conventional Green' coolants are the same old ethylene glycol base, which is referred to as 'Inorganic Acid Technology'. Works fine with copper and solder, and does the same job it's been doing for years. The manufacturers recommend a 50/50 mix for maximum freeze protection. I have chosen to use 30% antifreeze with the balance distilled water. That gives a freeze point around 10deg F. It does not get near that cold here.
Best regards.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 09:09 pm:

Thx all! Steve, Thx for the link!

I'm going to clean it and go green!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 11:12 pm:

Brian,
Thanks for answering my question!! So: Avoid the Orange. OK!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tyrone Thomas - Topeka KS on Friday, June 24, 2016 - 11:26 pm:

Bergs Radiator says distilled water/rain water with a water pump lube. I believe it is NAPA, Mac's 1300


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