Just saw this add on the MPLS Craigslist website:
No connection to the seller at all. No price listed, but the seller claims: "Everything on it is original from 1913 other than the running boards." PT Barnum was right, there is one born every minute.
What is wrong with the running boards?
(That isn't wrong with almost every other piece on it?)
26-27 pedals in transmission, not 1913
Maybe the current owner was fed this story when he bought it years ago and haven't done much research, just driven it - looks like it could be a fun car to drive (but not for that price)
Dave,The Henry Ford museum has a 1913 with 25=27 tranny.
I'm not an authority on the early Ts, but original electric starting and no brass headlamps on a 1913?
I'm no David Hasselhoff, but I do know that getting all uppity with the purist BS is a great
way to kill the hobby. Sure, it's good to know the facts and where our resources are for
period correct, but one walks a fat, black line in taking it too far.
Is it on a TT frame? There are no pictures showing the whole body but putting it all together in my head it seems really long.
Burger,Since the demise of the MTFCI forum,there has been more of the nit picking on cars here.It does serve a useful purpose,in that those of us who wish to put our cars/trucks as close to original as we can ,have a learning opportunity. The rest of us get to tolerate .It builds character,so they say...
"Everything on it is original from 1913 other than the running boards."
Is it "purist BS" to observe that such a statement is baloney?
Sure, it's baloney. And one could just as easily say "Methinks the seller is a tad confused
about what he has there" and perhaps offer some specifics for the greenhorn forum observer.
One could also take the tact of offering the facts in a non-condescending way to help the
less-knowing learn what those details are as a matter of educating.
Don't get me wrong guys, I am all for sharing the knowledge and keeping the historical facts
alive. I also know that over half of us are within ten years of changing positions in the "ashes-
to-ashes" game, and if we care at all about keeping our shared passion for old and cool alive
after we're gone, broadcasting our knowledge in a constructive light is going to attract a lot more
noobies than a snarly old curmudgeon/snooty purist route ever will.
I am a big fan of leading by attraction, rather than promotion. We are all ambassadors to this
hobby. Broadcasting in ways seen above might lead a potentially interested T fan to believe
T people are less than friendly and/or helpful. Is that the best plan ?
THINK about how you wish to represent your hobby.
*just a friendly reminder from the Happiness Council.
Part of the problem with this form of communication is that it's impossible to see the tongue in cheek expression on one's face as they type something.
Some of us do not expresses ourselves well in writing, and others somehow mis-read what we type.
Yes Burger, one gathers more "bees" with honey than with vinegar, but sometimes that's just too hard! I think if the ad had not stated "everything is 1913" (paraphrased) the grumpiness might not have surfaced. For many that is just waving a red flag in front of the bull.
It's not a bad-looking vehicle, but I doubt it is what the owner thinks it is.
I'm not sure if the owner is misrepresenting the car, or if he or she is simply relaying the misinformation given when the car was bought from the previous owner. The only way to know for sure is to talk to this person directly.
I'm not exactly a purist, but I have tried to keep my car as close to original equipment as possible. This is in order to fully appreciate the way T's from the factory operate. My next car will probably have more upgrades in it, but we'll see what happens if and when I get around to building it. Just so you know where I stand on the subject of "purist BS."
It looks like a cool car to cruise to the Dairy Queen in with a whole group of friends, family, neighbors, random people you meet along the way, what have you. The average person you meet is just going to say "Cool old car" and keep walking. If you do encounter someone genuinely interested, you could be prepared to discuss the historical inaccuracies in an informative way. I'm sure there will be people who spout the typical misinformation back at you, like how T's only came in black. There's going to be give and take between the informed, the misinformed, and the non-informed no matter what.
I for one would have to repaint it if I bought it. Yellow is not my color.
"One could also take the tact of offering the facts in a non-condescending way to help the
less-knowing learn what those details are as a matter of educating."
The only condescension in the posts preceding yours, was that which you imagined. There was nothing condescending about any of those statements. The only condescension I read, is that which you have heaped upon those who very simply stated the historical inaccuracies of a car being presented as authentic.
This reminds me of my days growing up on the farm. I'd walk into the chicken house to gather eggs and the skeptical tone those old birds would take with me!
This site is as much fun as attending a WCTU meeting. You go for the redemption and stay for the gossip. A learning experience nonetheless.
When will I learn not to be drinking something when I read threads like this? Still laughing; you wrote a very colorful picture (that city slickers probably don't see!).
Onward! There is a windmill somewhere that needs to be attacked! Prepare the joust!
Well, maybe the the Barnum reference was a little condescending. Barnum claimed he never said it, but I think it was accurate in his time. However, since the nineteenth century the world population has grown from a little over a billion to the point where it's now approaching seven billion. That means new suckers are arriving at a rate of approximately one every 8½ seconds.
I don't know what's going on with Burger here, but as one who is fast approaching the second ash heap, it seems a little strange.
If one were to show a picture of a Dodge Brothers car and describe it as a Model T, am I to understand we should apologize to the casual viewer for the parochial views of some so called Model T Ford enthusiasts? That your feelings are the most important thing here and if you feel better calling a Dodge a Ford it's ok.
To me, a 1913 Model T Ford possesses certain definite attributes which other year models do not. I thought it was the purpose of this forum to assist and guide others toward accurate knowledge of the Model T Ford.
The subject car ad seems to fall far short of this goal.
John, et al;
Be it a 1913 or a Dodge Brothers vehicle, calling people "suckers" or referring to the vehicle as
"wrong" is condescending in any language. My friends, I am afraid some of us have grown too
accustomed to our cynical paradigm and no longer sense that to those who do not know us, or
our "scene", they might just as likely see us as a kettle rife with axxholes and toss in the towel
for pursuing a Model T interest before they begin.
It is no skin off anyone's nose to point out that the vehicle in question is incorrectly described
and offer an education explanation of what is what without being condescending. Suggesting that
any potential buyer is a sucker and that as described, it is just plain WRONG is no way to attract
the casual (and potential) Model T enthusiast into the fold. Is it that difficult to see the difference
in approach ?
If we want to bring young blood into the hobby .... new blood means people with virtually no personal
connection to the T and the times, .... then doing so by attraction means WE, .... the oldsters now
holding the reigns, to make the hobby as attractive and fun as possible. Reread the first few posts
through the eyes of someone who knows nothing of the MTFCA, the hobby culture, or the cars
themselves, and ask yourself if this is an inviting conversation to the greenhorn, or one that makes
them see us all as a bunch of grumpy old curmudgeons ?
The lady doth protest too much, methinks.
A Model T "safe zone". Oh, brother.
i agree with The Burger ...
Looks like a nice TT depot hack. It has many parts from many years but all Model T. Many a speedster has been given a brass radiator and suddenly it is a 1912 Model T speedster. I think this depot hack has undergone a similar transformation.
In my humble opinion, every discussion about what is correct and what is not correct on a T is certainly relevant and should be welcomed on a forum dedicated to the preservation and furtherance of something we all have in common, our love for the Model T. Lets just not berate those who don't have all the knowledge that can only come with time, we all have to start somewhere, and have all been there.
My basic objection to these type of ads is that they are clearly false and misleading. Ever since the dawn of the information age, its pretty easy to find the information you need to accurately advertise what you are selling. How you price it is up to you, but in fairness to prospective buyers the item should be advertised for what it really is: a Model T depot hack assembled from various years parts, or simply as a Model T Depot hack. Regardless of what you were told previously, references to "year of manufacture" and "originality" should have been absent as they are misrepresenting the item.
I am well aware of a local situation where an antique auto buyer purchased a car that was clearly misrepresented regarding its condition and subsequently found himself with a huge financial liability in repairing all the defects in his "new" ride. Unfortunately, his response to the situation was to badly misrepresent the condition of his previous antique auto in an attempt to recoup the cash he laid out on the newer purchase. In short, it doesn't serve either sellers of potential purchasers (particularly folks new to the hobby) to have to deal with inaccurately advertised vehicles. There's just no substitute for honesty in business deals. As the old adage goes: what goes around, comes around".
Has anyone reached out to the seller? That seems to me to be the elephant in the room. We are all, to some degree, saying the seller should have done more research into what he or she is selling. What if we tried talking to the seller and sharing some knowledge, in as polite a way as possible, to help correct what we see as glaring inaccuracies in the listing?
We can all agree that the car is not what it's being advertised as being. Perhaps instead of sitting on our high thrones casting judgement we should try to help this person. If after an attempt is made the owner comes back with rude comments or a stubborn attitude, then we can drop the issue once and for all.
I can see nothing that I can identify as 1913 Model T Ford.
I can identify the pedals as 1926/7 Model T Ford,
I can identify the ignition switch as 1919-25. By extension of the ammeter, it has a generator and probably a starter which were not supplied until 1919, the rear wheel are from a TT truck which was introduced in the late teens.
Ford never built that style body any year of T production.
There is no way that this vehicle can be identified as a 1913 by anyone who claims to know anything about older vehicles.
As Kevin states "PT Barnum was right, there is one born every minute".
Some may not think this is not a politically correct attitude, but I for one think PT was correct.....
Can I add to "A sucker is born every minuet" and damm near all of them lived.
I recall reading somewhere that it really wasn't PT Barnum who said that, but that's almost irrelevant! The entire quote that I remember hearing was, "There's a sucker born every minute, and two to take him!" The one I do believe was his is,"Any publicity is good publicity!"
I might add, from WC Fields; "Anyone who doesn't like kids and dogs can't be all bad!"
Go away kid, ya bother me. . . .
Seems to me an arrogant #@! is born every third minute and most of them end up being old
car guys. Half of them aren't bright enough to connect the dots between an unwelcoming/
unhelpful attitude and killing off the hobby they claim to care about.
Burger, I think you and I are on the same page. Instead of calling the seller names for his attempt to pass this bitsa car as a fully original 1913, let's try discerning whether or not he even knows the difference first.
Even if the seller was a fraudster, ... there is a more appropriate way of calling this out,
as it reflects on the MTFCA forum and the Model T scene in general. For a bunch of old
guys who regularly post their concerns about perpetuating the hobby, it is entirely counter-
productive to make it appear to uninitiated 3rd parties (potentially interested "new blood")
that we're nothing but a bunch of snooty, holier-than-thou curmudgeons. Caustic (and
entirely unnecessary) put-down commentary is NOT inviting to the budding enthusiast.
Perhaps our ranks have been around so long they have forgotten what that looks and feels
"...holier-than-thou curmudgeons. Caustic (and
entirely unnecessary) put-down commentary is NOT inviting to the budding enthusiast."
You mean comments like this, "Seems to me an arrogant #@! is born every third minute and most of them end up being old
car guys. Half of them aren't bright enough to connect the dots between an unwelcoming/
unhelpful attitude and killing off the hobby they claim to care about."