RACE CAR FOUND .. Need Help identifying this car.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: RACE CAR FOUND .. Need Help identifying this car.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Apolo Orfali on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 02:22 am:

Hello everybody ..
I'm a new guy here..and I like to present my self by saying what a nice forum you guys have here , thank you for all the info there is ..
My name is Apolo from Southern CA and I have the incredible luck of founding what it looks like a 1913 by the engine # Ford model T with a bit of special features..
Lets start with the story and you can look by yourself the link share for the pictures.
This car was purchased in around 1953 , the car was seating in one of two metal buildings by the railroad tracks in Baldwin Park CA .
The car was transported to a Hangar and was there ever since until June 20th , when I got it .
Car was picked up the way you see it with no body work and one of the rear solid disc wheels hub and brake drum was missing.
It looks like the car was raced in the early twenties by the modifications I notice on the starter, I believe it came on 1919..? you guys know better than me .
the car was seating is this Hangar along with a few 1936 airplanes and some others model T.. not for sale do.
I like to ask if anybody will have any information or old pictures from this CA car with it license plate , we like to follow history to try to remake the body if it's possible with your help
You can Contact me by phone or email me at
apolo1100@hotmail.com
cell.. 949-205-9903
Thank you in advance ..
https://1drv.ms/f/s!AuqLmHlK95sAgZhegJbQQII0RXNcjQ


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 03:03 am:

Hmm, link didn't work, can you copy them to here?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 03:46 am:

Here's a shortened link to the photos: https://goo.gl/wnh8ky

Cool original speedster/racer :-)
Without the original hood/cowl that may have had some lettering it would be hard to identify it from original photos, if any such photo has survived. It has a May 1913 engine that originally didn't have any starter, the transmission cover with a starter is later.
The fastest competitive racers had OHV modifications, so this may have primarily been a speedster for road use? Though the spot lights as head lamps wouldn't have been much at dark..

If you buy the books "the Fast Ford Handbook" and "Model T in Speed and Sport" you'll find articles and ads from the time describing most of the modifications plus pictures of the high and narrow radiator style that was fitted as can be seen in the remaining firewall.

https://www.modeltford.com/item/P3.aspx
https://www.modeltford.com/item/P8.aspx

And here's a Bosh ad from 1923, showing the same chain driven magneto you have:
bosch


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 05:08 am:

That front axle is a work of art. I thought the one I found for my speedster was nice but that one takes the prize. What a wonderful star to a unique speedster.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 05:14 am:

Yep. Took lots of heat to bend the axle to that shape :-)
Then the front spring was shortened and flattened to complete the lowering.

hu


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron in Central Massachusetts on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 06:54 am:

Great find - what is still "out there" waiting to be discovered in a barn, shed or - in this case - hangar, never ceases to amaze me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 08:21 am:

Looks like more of a highway speedster than a race car to me. No shocks, no pressurized fuel system and that vac tank fuel pump would never be on a race car. Lots of other interesting mods, most heavy weightwise. That carburetor is a work of art also, anyone know what it was made for? The intake and exhaust do seem to be of the race car variety and well made. You would think there has to be a story with this car somewhere out there.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brent in 10-uh-C on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 09:10 am:

Jim, the carburetor is a Hudson Super 6 carb. I agree with your assessment regarding mods however it is plausible to me that it could have still been a race car but a heavy one built by a non-experienced racer who did not understand the 'lighter is faster' concept. Definitely a neat car and a great conversation starter!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 12:53 pm:

Odd air intake on the Hudson carb, the choke attachment looks a little restrictive? I agree with Jim that the intake and exhaust manifolds are well made :-)

Here are a couple more pictures for those who haven't clicked on the link yet..

ss

ll


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 03:00 pm:

Interesting extra strap across front end of frame right above stock factory cross member. Probably not only affords strength to "help" front cross member, but also a place to mount special non-stock racing radiator? By the look of the tall and vertical water outlet pipe on front of low head, must have been a tall and narrow radiator. Also interesting that spindle bolts appear to have grease cups on top.

All in all, quite a "study" in interesting racing "mods", but like Brent said, certainly not much consideration in regard to "weight reduction"!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 03:03 pm:

Interesting extra strap across front end of frame right above stock factory cross member. Probably not only affords strength to "help" front cross member, but also a place to mount special non-stock racing radiator? By the look of the tall and vertical water outlet pipe on front of low head, must have been a tall and narrow radiator. Also interesting that spindle bolts appear to have grease cups on top.

All in all, quite a "study" in interesting racing "mods", but like Brent said, certainly not much consideration in regard to "weight reduction"!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 04:05 pm:

Have to leave in just a minute. But quickly, it may have had a Saxon radiator. I base that on the shape of the firewall, radiator mounting modifications, and the fact that I have seen a couple of original era photos showing that combination on T racers.
Racing was not limited to AAA or other sanctioned events. Thousands of such cars were built for local and county racing events back in those days. Many did not have expensive modifications (like OHVs). Not many of them survived the scrap drives. I hope this one gets properly restored!
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 04:09 pm:

I wouldn't be surprised if it never had much of a body. Maybe just a hood.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Apolo Orfali on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 04:33 pm:

Hi, and thank you for the nice words..
I really believed this car was raced , and to be honest we didn't even put oil in the cylinder yet .. I really like to see if anybody has a rear hub with the adapter for the 4 bolts pattern that needs those Michelin rims. also I notice that the wheel nuts are stamp with a L assuming is a left hand thread,( I need a set of 4 lug nuts also ) looking at the other side front and rears are stamped with an R so right hand it will be .
there's a swap meet reunion or something like that coming soon this July and I like to bring it and show it ..maybe I'll get some input on the history of the car .
we really like to do as much research as possible to have solid info or pictures to begin with the restoration .
I was watching some documentaries and I came across the golden ford, from discovery channel and i really like the body on that one , but it will have to be done in aluminum.
the front axel will have to be replace.
Noo .. just kidding ..! that is the nicest part on the car I think..
well , lets keep on waiting for some answers from some of the members, mean wile I thank you all so far.
Apolo


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 04:38 pm:

Agree

Many of the Fords raced light, not much but frame, engine, and a driver with nerves of steel. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 07:36 pm:

I agree with Jerry and Dan as to the body. This car more than likely had a radiator and "maybe" a hood. and that was about it... I hope you can find out some of the history of this car. It is a very nice example of "how it was done in the old days". and would be a shame to change its design. I'll have to respectivally disagree with Jim on the vacuum tank. There are pictures of vacuum tanks in old ads for the Fronty heads. The carbs were placed so high on lots of the overhead valve cars and the tanks were placed low and toward the rear. Some form of fuel pump system was needed to keep gas to the carb. The old hand pumps worked but needed constant attention while racing. A vacuum tank would do all the work for you, so you could concentrate on "staying alive" Very nice find..... have fun and be safe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 07:55 pm:

How Uber Cool.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Wednesday, June 29, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

I hope this is conserved and not restored. Just adding the parts needed to make it whole ... and not "new." It's an artifact that would fuel the imagination of those out there who would like a true reference for building one from scratch from parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 02:56 am:

I agree with Mark I hope this car is never restored. Just get it going as is. Rebuild the engine with the same cam and timing. These old race car mechanics really knew there stuff to make that engine go and win! I do believe you will be surprised on the engines performance if you don't modernise it other than crank and rods. Just look at the porting he has done and manifolding. The Hudson/Essex 4 carby was a period performance addition for Ford racers in that era, have seen them before.

Here is a photo of a car similar to yours and a radiator that would be a good match for your car.



Her is another later photo of the same Hughes car with updated body and a better shot of the radiator for you. (Both from North West Speedster Site)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By mark herdman on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 03:03 am:

Apolo

I believe Hughes used a 1915c Model B Saxon Radiator. Others might be able to verify that for you




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Daniel Meakin - England on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 11:23 am:

Hi Apolo,

Here is a picture of my racer which also run's Michelin rim's.

Although not quite complete, final 'body' will be identical to current style i.e. none.

image/jp2Racer
P1010871.jp2 (221.5 k)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Meakin on Thursday, June 30, 2016 - 01:27 pm:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 02:02 am:

Curious where you got those seats?
Regards,
Mike.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Apolo Orfali on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 12:44 am:

Hello everyone..!
let me tell you how exiting we are working on this car..! even with 105 degrees we are on it ...!
we started pulling the car apart and we found a lot of stuff we are unfamiliar with it , I have never work on one of this before and my friend and partner did work on one many years ago ..but he doesn't recall the original parts anymore.
so he we are looking at old posts and thanks to internet and some far away friends that have restored a few of this cars they have been very helpful.
we started to restore some parts.. carb, mag, steaward and all the frame and steel parts are in the media blaster already.
like I mention on the previous post , we still looking for the Hub Adapter for the Michelin Disc Rims.. No luck yet .. so I think we going to have one made.. also I need your help on where to find a set of wheel nuts in brass like the ones on the pictures .. I need a set of 4 left hand thread. or on witch car they where used also...?
looking at the interior of the pistons, I see some markings DE LUXE PARTS PEND.. is that OEM ford ..? size of the piston ring are huge ..! compared to what I'm used to see.. !
cylinder walls are in excellent shape and not much ware to the pistons skirts also..
connecting rods looks like new .. and there's a strange stamping on top of the block letters and numbers.. anyone knows what this is..?
well ..enjoy the new pictures .!
Cheers..!
APOLO
HERE IS THE LINK..

https://1drv.ms/i/s!AuqLmHlK95sAgaJLJgp9omTYq4-kgg


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 10:06 am:

What's the material like in the pistons? Standard Ford was cast iron, but aluminum alloys were getting popular at the time as accessories due to lighter weight. Std Ford piston rings are 1/4" wide, while modern alu pistons has 1/8" wide rings. It's likely period aftermarket pistons also had 1/4" wide rings. Replacement rings are available.

Usually you can tell if an engine is worn by a ridge in the cylinders where the rings stopped - not so on a Model T engine, the wide rings goes all the way up to the deck plane, so there won't form any ridge regardless of how worn it gets. But you can measure, 3.750" was the original bore. Might be oversize pistons, though.

Did you find the speedster/racer books?
Here are some manuals that gives lots of essential knowledge for the Model T restorer:
http://modeltstore.myshopify.com/products/service-manuals
Even the catalogs from the vendors are good reading to be familiar with the Model T and what's available (you can get advice here also about what's worthwhile to buy - good original parts are generally better than modern repro stuff)

Can't tell what this marking on the deck plane is about.. Maybe someone else can?

ss


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 11:17 pm:

My T/A race car, Model T frame suspension front end, rear end steering and a Model A engine and transmission. Grafted drive shafts T/A RACE CAR


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 11:20 pm:

Thanks for sharing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 11:38 pm:

Rear steer?
Can we see a picture of that setup?

Each racecar deserves it's own website


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 11:48 pm:


I built this gear box so I could bring the steering out the side, It drives great with no bump steer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Tuesday, July 19, 2016 - 11:54 pm:

Sorry Chris I guess after re reading you were making fun of me leaving out a comma. :-)


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