Lower pulley rattle normal?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Lower pulley rattle normal?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 12:17 am:

This video shows a looseness in the lower pulley that I think is the source of a rattle.

I'm not sure what you call this part or if it just might need a bolt that might have sheared off?

https://youtu.be/1IY0V8auUYI


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 12:46 am:

Fan drive pulley, Part #3963. It shouldn't be loose. Fix or replace. It's held on by a pin, not a bolt. The ratchet on the crank handle grabs the pin (Part #3040) to turn the engine when you start the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 01:03 am:

If it isn't too bad, you can put a sheet metal shim between the pulley and crankshaft.

Also, I suggest you get the correct flat fan belt for your car. I noticed in your video as well as prior posts that you have a thin modern belt on the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 03:28 am:

There's a two-volume set of books called "Tinker'n Tips", that Ted Ashmann (sp?) wrote with some pretty good stuff in them. He actually "addressed" the loose crankshaft pulley problem. I don't know if anybody reading this will remember what he suggested, but I just happen to remember what he said. The reason I remember is that I have never been able to decide if he was really serious with his suggestion, or just kidding, as his writing WAS laced with quite a bit of humor, and there's no question that there really are many good and useful tips in those two volumes, but listen to this one, and tell me if you think he was serious or not:

I can't remember his exact wording, but in effect, for a loose crankshaft pulley, he suggested doing something like literally "beating up" the section of the crankshaft where the crankshaft pulley fits, and then forcing the pulley back on over the somewhat damaged surface of that front end section of the crankshaft! What I don't remember (and right now, I can't find it in those two "non-indexed volumes) but it was something like using a hammer or pipe wrench or something to "rough up" the surface of that section of the crankshaft!

As I said, I really don't know if he was kidding or serious, however, in reality, a beer can "shim" kinda' sounds a bit crude to me too. One thing about it tho' is that this all tends to indicate that a loose crankshaft pulley is really not the most serious "T" engine problem that one could have, right? And I'm sure that the problem probably WAS actually handled in just that way by some o' them "country boys" back in the depression era! FWIW,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 06:19 am:

Ha
Great story!

I will look for those books and the proper belt.

I've also ordered a new pin since mine no longer fuller protrudes out either side of the lower pulley.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 07:35 am:

Chris, the pin does not protude out the holes on the pully. If it did, it would tear up the belt. Also, I have found the pins you get from the vendors usually don't fit..I ended up getting a roll pin from a local place. Crap, can't remember the name, but they're a national chain. They also ship for individuals too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 07:38 am:

FASTENAL!!! That's the name of the place! and I meant to say "protrude", not protude!! Too early to be thinking and typing. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 10:40 am:

This pin is shot, but it will serve to illustrate.


As this shows, the pin is long enough for the ratchet to grab it, but it fits inside the pulley.


The pulley has two opposing holes. The larger one (far side here) is for installing the pin. The smaller hole is for driving out the pin with a drift when you need to remove it. The hole in the pin is for a cotter to keep it from protruding out of the big hole.

I found one pulley with the smaller hole drilled out to the same size as the other one. In that case you would drill an extra hole in the pin so it can have a cotter at both ends to keep it inside.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 12:00 pm:

The original pins are tapered, and only come out one way, so a single cotter pin should do the trick in any case. The reproduction stuff is typically trouble, I stay away from it as much as possible. Hopefully you can just make a shim from a piece of beer can and move on to other things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 01:22 pm:

Ha

No wonder the sound has the tone of a tin cup!

Thank You all.

Henry's engineers could never have anticipated that people would be talking about this nearly 100 years later!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 08:35 pm:

Harold. He was serious. That was an old timer trick to fix it back in the day. My grandpa said he would take the ratteling pulley off and then take a pipe wrench and use it on the crank shaft to turn the engine over. You do not want the pipe wrench to "slip" and tear off shavings. You want it to bind tight and just put "teeth marks" into the crankshaft. So a good sharp pipe wrench is needed. He said turn it over a couple times and then check the pulley. If it is still loose, turn it some more. You want to have to drive it into position. Not too tight or not too loose. It needs the "Goldielocks" fit. Then insert a new pin and you are on your way. I am not recommending this to anyone. Especially if you have a good or almost new crankshaft. I have did it myself on a very very badly worn crankshaft, and it does work. Its just a way they did it "back then". As my grandpa used to say "poor folks" "poor ways" have fun and be safe ....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By paul iverson freeport ill. on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 10:47 pm:

another way to do a farmer or butcher repair is take a sharp center punch and carefuly go all around the shaft evenly spacing the dings. I have done it on lawn mowers.nothing else I would admit To!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Friday, July 01, 2016 - 11:39 pm:

If you use the shim method, go with steel shim stock not aluminum beer cans. Like beer that taste good and feels good for a while, the aluminum stock wears out fast and needs another one. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Saturday, July 02, 2016 - 12:19 am:

I had the same problem with a 15 I recently bought. I was able to heat/cool shrink the pulley to a tight fit. It required several heatings until it was red hot and plunged into the cold water. Some would say I may have tempered the pulley. It is tight (driven on) after several months of driving. Maybe it worked.
The reason I went to this trouble was that I found out that some of the new adjustable ones will not allow the crank ratchet to hook onto the pin. I asked one of our major suppliers to test it before I ordered one and he responded back that I was correct. I asked him what he was going to do with the ones he had and he didn't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Saturday, July 02, 2016 - 01:18 am:

I like the idea of heating yours is holding up and didn't crack.

Seems like a shim might be tough to fit but if I can try to find suitable material that will stay in place that might be a next step.

I read somewhere that if the pin holes are worn one approval has been to drill a new hole at 90 But I don't want to weaken the crank like that. However, it makes me wonder about drilling a hole and threading a screw against the crank if all other attempts fail.

It also seems like it's going to be tough to find space to drive a tighter fitting pulley solution in such a tight space & without risking damage to the crank journals. I already see a shiny portion of the crank protruding from the block, which makes me think it has walked forward a bit. I'm in no hurry to pull the bottom pan since there are no leaks or internal noises.

Anyway, a compression test could give me baseline numbers and hopefully remove valve problems from the checklist.

Thank You in advance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, July 02, 2016 - 01:46 am:

Donnie Brown - Thanks for that,.....I kinda' thought he was serious too but sure didn't feel like I wanted to "recommend" that kind of a "fix"! Guess you'd call Ted Ashmann's and your Grandpa's pipe wrench technique sort of a "farmer's knurling job", huh? Yeah, I'm sure that it would actually work,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Saturday, July 02, 2016 - 02:03 am:

Hmm

That also makes me think that "knurling" The inside of the pulley might be an option to consider as long as it is done in a way that does not damage the driveshaft.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Saturday, July 02, 2016 - 11:56 am:

Think about this technique mentioned above fellows - regardless of which one is applied - dimpling, knurling, strawberrying or whatever you want to name the process, consider now that you have to "drive" the pulley back onto the end of the crankshaft and by that action, you have just taken the tops of all your upsets and in short order you will once again hear the telltale signs of a loose pulley - think about it.

I had a "rebuilt" engine come into the shop years ago and after removing the loose pulley, the front of the crank had been "strawberryed" about a hundred times - unbelievable !


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 09:18 am:

I am reading some of the answers above and I have to say that there is never a question that is correctly answered by telling the guy to ruin his crankshaft using a hammer and punch. That is some really bad advice.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 10:15 am:

I have knurled loose fitting pins, so they won't rattle back and forth. I don't think they were ever tapered as Royce mentioned. I have some NOS ones at home that I could mike. On the way home now from the Albuquerque tour.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 10:46 am:

I have used steel shims, one on each side perpendicular to the pin. It has worked on that car for over 20 years. For a loose pin, I put a small kink in the pin right in the center. That way it is snug in the crankshaft. Sometimes, however the pulley gets so bad it needs to be replaced. I have used the aluminum replacement on one of mine with success.

Another thing which happened to one of our members on a tour was the pulley actually cracked around the center of the hub. That was caused by tightening the belt too tight which caused the pulley to flex and eventually metal fatigue.

So check things out and either repair or replace. I would not recommend knurling the end of the crankshaft. If any knurling is done it should be inside the pulley.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 12:17 pm:

Thx Norm!

Yesterday I drove my Porsche a few hours in the country and my mind kept drifting back to creating shims like you suggested but I was thinking of sticking them in the end of the driveshaft until I remembered the hand crank would probably interfere.

Are your shims like bent steel cotter pins or small nails? Can we se a picture of one?

Email me if it is easier.


Thank You!
Chris@Laughary.com


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 01:03 pm:

Trying aluminum pulley from ebaySplit


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 01:14 pm:

Ebay bid ran up so I just bought a new one from Langs

Maybe it will put this issue to rest
If not I'll install the electric fan

Thx all


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 01:23 pm:

Steel or brass (too soft for this use) comes in several thickness example .001, .0015, .002 up etc. You cut it to the size needed. It fits between the inner diameter of the pulley hole and the outer diameter of the crank shaft to take up space. Really good hard wear stores may even have it in rolls you you only need to buy a few inches. After you cut it burnish the edges for a clean install. If you have say .005 wear, you would use the .0025 because it wraps around to fill the space. 2X.0025=.005.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 03:35 pm:

I can't take a picture because they are flat strips about 1/2 inch wide. Don't remember the exact thickness but .001,002. maybe. Just cut and lay them on the crankshaft, one on each side of the hole where the pulley goes and then drive the pulley on. If any of the shim sticks out in front, cut it off flush with the pulley.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, July 03, 2016 - 03:36 pm:

I didn't mention this. Steel Shimstock.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 06:48 pm:

The new aluminum split pulley has arrived.

I have tried several bad ideas to reach and remove the cotter pin.

Any tips or tricks short of removing the radiator?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 07:12 pm:

Why do some people always insist on changing things? What is wrong with stock??? When you start modifying stuff, you run into problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 08:00 pm:

Chris, no. You have to pull the radiator. That's a good time then to flush it, the engine, check your timing, inspect and/or replace belt, a myriad of great opportunities presents itself just for taking the 20 minutes to pull the radiator. Git 'er done! And I agree with Larry's post above.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 09:14 pm:

I'll be glad to be done with the rattle


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 09:20 pm:

Chris, before you go to the trouble of pulling your radiator and if you think you will ever use the crank to start,(your 24 has a starter and you may never need to crank it) I would check to make sure the crank ratchet will go in far enough to latch onto the driven pin. That is the problem I mentioned above and it is with at least some of the aluminum pulleys. It is sometimes impossible to have the ratchet hook onto the pin because the space is not enough between the pin and the inside back of the pulley. Just check it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 09:34 pm:

Thank You RS

I will definitely still want to use the crank


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 09:56 pm:

I didn't have any problem with the crank ratchet and the aluminum pulley which I got from Lang's about 3 years ago, but you could check to see how it fits before installation and if you need to do any modification it would be much easier to do before installation.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 10:44 pm:

I went through this very recently. Here is what I learned:

Pull the radiator it changes the job from barely possible to easy.

I used two pieces of 1/2" wide flat steel shim stock. One on either side of the crank pin. I think I ended up using a 4 though piece. If your local parts store doesnt stock it, you can use a feeler gauge to donate the material. I have several I picked up at yard sales for a buck each that I use as shim stock when needed.

I tried putting the pulley on then adding the shim, and putting the shim inside they pulley and guiding the assembly on. The second approach worked much better.

Be careful that the shim doesn't get pushed out during install and ride onto the seal.

After playing with the shims I had a smug fit, not tight. I added some loctite green and it has been holding great. Some members warned against adding the loctite due to removal concerns but I never had an issue removing loctite if I apply heat.

Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 11:06 pm:

Thank You

The swap out was pretty easy once I pulled the manual crank handle to get it out of the way. Then I used a punch spike to twist the cotter pin out of the lower pulley.

Sliding the new split aluminum pulley on was a snap and the noise is gone!

I thought about painting it black but it will match my aluminum is z head when it arrives soon. Of course I am saving all original parts to stay with the vehicle.


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