Generator rebuild

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Generator rebuild
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 12:17 pm:

After a long hiatus, I'm finally ready to put this back on the car.

Two years ago,I had Ron Patterson install my new field coils, and I got one of his rebuilt brush rings.

When he sent it back, it sat for a while until today. I hooked up a battery to it and it motors. I did not replace the armature.

Releasing the third brush, it still motored until I moved the brush ring assembly opposite direction of armature rotation. There I stopped when it stopped and retightened everything. Replaced the third brush and it motors again.

Now, I want to place this in the car and adjust it. How does it not electricute me if I touch a metal wrench inside the thing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 12:34 pm:

You might start by readjusting the brush ring. You set it by turning it till the gen rotates counter clockwise then turn back till it's just trying to rotate clockwise. You might be in the ball park now anyway. You will not get electrocuted by the amp's or voltage put out by the generator. Wrap electrical tape around the brush adjusting wrench where it might hit the case so it's doesn't short out on the case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 03:44 pm:

I must have done something wrong. Put the genny back on the car and made the adjustments. But I done think something is kosher

The ammeter with lights on shows half way between 0 and 15 and motor running. Turn off lights and goes back to zero.

However when I was making the original adjustments I could not get the genny to read zero with the lights on after moving the brush and I've moved it its whole movement allowance.

Other news is my mag started working as soon as I put the genny in the car and took the alternator back off.

Help?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 04:31 pm:

William,

First, your ammeter is hooked up backwards. What's really happening is that you've got about 8 or 10 amps DISCHARGE with the lights on, and ZERO charge with them off because your generator is not putting out.

Start by swapping the wires around on the back of your ammeter.

Unless I misunderstand the situation, I can't figure out why you changed Ron Patterson's brush plate settings. Did you install the brush plate instead of him? At any rate, follow Mark's directions to reset the brush plate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 04:34 pm:

William,

When I read your statement, "...half way between 0 and 15 and motor running...", I assumed you meant between 0 and 15 on the "charge" side. That's what my recommendation above was based on. I see now that you never really specified "charge" or "discharge"

Which is it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 04:45 pm:

With motor running and lights on the ammeter reads discharge. Sorry for not making that clear.

The brush plate was installed by me. The only thing Ron did was install the field coil assembly.

The ammeter has already been switched to read correctly from several years ago.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 07:59 pm:

Bump


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 01:30 pm:

William,

O.K. thanks for the clarification.

Are you certain of the wire connections you made when installing the brush plate?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Friday, July 08, 2016 - 02:25 pm:

I think so. Is there a way to test that?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 11:53 am:

I took k the genny back off and removed the armature so I could make sure all the wires were connected to the proper places. All seems good. I'll put it back I this week after it and the alternator back off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 05:13 am:

Do you have the ford service manual? That will answer a lot of your questions. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 03:38 pm:

yup


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 09:51 pm:

You have made one statement a few times that doesn't really tell us anything. You stated "with the motor running...." you get a certain reading. If the motor is just running at idle then you will get the same readings on the ammeter as with the motor shut off. A generator in general is different than an alternator in that you typically get NO CHARGE at all when the motor is idling and you need to increase the RPM to something equal to or above 20 MPH to see substantial charging. No correct procedure for adjusting the charge rate of a T generator is done with it at anything but a HIGH RPM.

Hope this helps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Wednesday, July 13, 2016 - 10:30 pm:

Hey, William. Hope all is well. Are you still running my motor in there? What kind of cutout are you using? The idea here is to not be making "too much" juice. If you have adjusted the third brush and then turn the lights on while the engine is turning a moderately high rpm, the ammeter should show less than zero, as it does. Mine ( regular cutout ) is set to charge a measly 5 amps. When I put the lights on, she shows negative 5 amps. All good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 12:59 am:

Yes, Dave the 23 motor is still in the car. The cutout looks like a Ford one but it's not marked, so I call it a "generic one". Lang's sells it. It is a silver color.

I'm going to put the genny back on the car tomorrow afternoon and see if it charges at all. If not, I'm going to order some replacement parts and see if that fixes anything. If that doesn't, then I'll get a new armature, although I tested the armature on a growler and the test light did NOT come on.

Thanks, John I will increase the RPM a little more for adjustment sake.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 06:48 am:

If the generator "motored" when you had it on the work bench, it should be able to make power for you. It sounds like you did correctly find the neutral setting for the brush plate.

The question at this point is whether the cutout is functioning as a switch or not. Bypass it. Run a jumper wire around it and see if you get a positive output on your ammeter.

If you are, go back to making the fine adjustments of the third brush and don't be too worried about touching anything or seeing a few sparks. There isn't enough juice there to shock you. Pulling the lock nut toward you lowers the output, pushing it toward the engine block increases the output. Shoot for under 10 amps output... Or less. As John said, these adjustments need to be done with the engine at medium rpm, not at idle. Hopefully, you just need a new cutout or one of Regan's voltage regulators.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 04:27 pm:

Ok I am now at a loss. Put the genny back on, increased the rpm rate and moved the third brush. Still no charge showing on the ammeter no matter where the brush is placed.

I checked for continuity on the battery side of the cut out and get 6.5 (hopefully I'm reading it correctly. My eyesight is going on tiny numbers and letters).

I'm thinking new terminal bolt and wire with insulator and new cut out. Maybe new brushes too. I'd really like to try that before laying out buckage for an armature.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 05:11 pm:

Maybe the ammeter isn't hooked up, somebody bypassed it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 05:31 pm:

Doesn't have to be by passed, I have on one of my T's an amp gauge that is frozen, charging system still works fine.
Check the running at night, lights will brighten up with revs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 05:32 pm:

I wouldn't get a discharge on the ammeter when the lights are turned on if it wasn't hooked up. There isn't a single wire on my car missing. Lol


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 05:36 pm:

The genny isn't charging because I've driven with it on the car at night and there is no change the in the lights whatsoever. I've driven with the alternator at night and unless you keep the revs up the lights dim. With the gen it didn't do anything. However the ammeter shows a charge when the alternator is on the car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 07:02 pm:

Did you bypass the cutout?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William L Vanderburg on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 09:44 pm:

Not yet. I'm looking for wire to do that with. But I can't see the ammeter from the engine bay, so how to do it without crying the generator


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Young in Mays Landing, NJ on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 11:09 pm:

No need to worry about frying the generator. You can remove the cutout and put an alligator clip on to the wire that normally hooks to the cutout. Start the motor and quickly clip the wire to the generator output post. Take a look at the ammeter and see what it says.

The cutout is basically a diverter valve. Picture the letter Y or a set of train tracks with a track selector. The approaching train is either sent to the left or to the right. The cutout either sends juice to the battery or to ground. Pry it apart and look in there. Just bend the tabs straight and beat on it a little. It will open up.

There is a set of points in it that get cooked pretty bad. If they can't make contact, all of the generator's output is sent to ground and nothing will show on your gauge. Bypassing that "valve" or switch, makes the output only go to the battery and be measured by the ammeter.


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