In car Magneto Recharge party at OCF?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: In car Magneto Recharge party at OCF?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 11:10 pm:

My T runs well on Mag, but will not start on Mag. I have been considering doing an in car mag Recharge and have read just about everything about it, buy have never actually done it. I was going to post some clarifying questions, and do it this week, but then I had a thought that there will be a hundred or so Ts at OCF and there may be others in a similar boat. If I brought batteries and wire etc, would anyone with experience doing in car recharges want to help host a in car mag Recharge session Saturday PM?

Thoughts?

Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 11:36 pm:

I don't think kitty would like that. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 11:43 pm:

In cat Magneto!Eveready Cat
Always wondered how those worked!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 11:45 pm:

Yea Dave, You beat me to it! I hear it puts a little "spark" in their step!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 11:52 pm:

David, I may have beaten you to it but, that famous logo you posted is spot on!.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Wednesday, July 06, 2016 - 11:57 pm:

As long as Joe finds it amusing... All is good! Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 12:13 am:

Joe,
Before you do a magneto recharge you need to test your magneto first.
You said the car is running well on magneto but do not start.
I think the problem is not your magneto but it are your coils that need a set up.
For testing the magneto, connect a 12V 21W light between the magneto post and the car frame. Connect a DC voltmeter over the light and start the car on battery.
At starting speed you should have 6Vdc +, at idle about 12Vdc +. When you increase the engine speed the tension will raise till the light blow out at about 28Vdc +.

Good luck
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 12:23 am:

The DC MUST BE AC tension and current.
Sorry but it is early in the morning.
Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 07:06 am:

I made the post from my phone and did not notice the typo. That said is there any interest?

Andre, the coils are fresh from Ron Patterson. It has been 23 yeas since the mag was rebuilt.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 07:39 am:

Joe, When you try to start the car on MAG how far are you advancing the timing. On my car I need to advance about 10 -12 clicks but everything I have read says 4 - 5 clicks I Just assume it is a quirk that SaraJane has developed over 89 years :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Andre Valkenaers on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 10:44 am:

Joe,
Your coils are good.
Ok, but before trying to recharge the magneto just test it and try what G.R. said.
Do not try to repair what is not broken.

I saw, on your profile, You have a 1914 touring so no electrical starter. The 6VAC I said before is for turning the engine over with a starter motor.
Cranking should give you 2 to 3VAC. This should be enough for the coils to spark.

Good luck.

Andre
Belgium


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 12:07 pm:

RE;I had a thought that there will be a hundred or so Ts at OCF and there may be others in a similar boat.

My thoughts would be; you draw a lot of current from the battery's so how long would they hold up? Next; there is the risk of explosion. You have the same risk at home but now you are dealing with a group of people not just you. From the sounds of it, have never done this before. There is a bit of a learning curve to the actual hands on part of the job. It's not hard but...

If you did this in any case you would need 6 6 volt batteries or 3 12 volt batteries to do the job right along with the correct gauge wire and all the connectors.
There is the risk of not getting it quite right on someones car.
The plan and intent is great but I think that this would not be the best action at something like this. It may not even be allowed, you would need to check first.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 12:51 pm:

Ron Patterson saw this post and gave me a call. He ran me through the reasons why an in car recharge is more of a last resort than something that should be as maintenance. He also wanted to make sure I was advancing the spark lever 4 or 5 notches when attempting to start on mag, which I wasn't.

I went out earlier today and tried to start on Mag with the timing advanced 5 notches. It fired up on the first 1/4 pull and idled a little more stable than starting on batt with lever all the way up.

Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 01:12 pm:

Good to hear Joe! Sparks and batteries kinda scare me, It is nice to have a resource like this forum to learn from. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 01:23 pm:

Ron Patterson saw this post and gave me a call. He ran me through the reasons why an in car recharge is more of a last resort than something that should be as maintenance. He also wanted to make sure I was advancing the spark lever 4 or 5 notches when attempting to start on mag, which I wasn't.

I went out earlier today and tried to start on Mag with the timing advanced 5 notches. It fired up on the first 1/4 pull and idled a little more stable than starting on batt with lever all the way up.

Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 01:23 pm:

Sorry about the double post.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Timothy Kelly on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 03:17 pm:

Well that's great news!

Plus it saved another cat. And, with its good fortune it will hopefully find a few more mice that might otherwise camp out in a T.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 06:01 pm:

Joe,

My 14 will start on mag when warmed up but runs rough, spotty and sometimes cuts out when driving. I don't know if that means the mags need recharging or not but if you're still doing a mag recharge party, count me in and let me know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rob Heyen - Eastern Nebraska on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 06:08 pm:

Oh well, we can still have a party...... :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Thursday, July 07, 2016 - 06:18 pm:

Marty,

I was looking for someone with experience to help with the mag recharge idea, but at the time I thought it was more of a maintenance item than a last ditch effort. After posting here and talking offline to some others, it seems the in car mag recharge is more of a last resort and if done improperly can result in making things worse.

The mag recharge party is off, but we can still have fun at OCF!

If your coils are not fresh, you may want to contact Ron Patterson. He redid mine last year and it changed the way the car drove completely. He is a nice guy and very knowledgeable about Ts in general, and especially the ignition system.

-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Saturday, July 09, 2016 - 09:00 am:

Joe, thanks. I didn't know it was a last resort.

Brent Mize did my brass-top coils and he does FANTASTIC work!!

Can't wait until OCF. After 35 years, this will be my last one narrating but certainly not my last one participating!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Saturday, July 09, 2016 - 10:24 am:

Marty, "in car mag charge" is one of those things that folks argue about. You can cite many,many examples of it working well and no counter examples of damage, yet certain folks have made up their mind that it is a bad thing. Here is a thread where we went at it:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/528397.html?1431523227

It really surprises me how tightly folks cling to their dogma despite what seems to me to be overwhelming evidence to the contrary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Saturday, July 09, 2016 - 10:40 am:

MagChargeChecklist

Woo-hoo! A checklist!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Marty Bufalini - Grosse Pointe, MI on Sunday, July 10, 2016 - 05:49 pm:

Tom, thanks. I read the thread(s) and am now confused, which is nothing unusual. So, is in-car recharge a last ditch fix or sort of "maintenance" item?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Sunday, July 10, 2016 - 06:40 pm:

Are those the only choices? :-) I would not call an in car charge a last ditch fix. I have seen it work dozens of times with no ill effect, so that description is inaccurate. I also would not call it a "maintenance" item. If your mag is working properly, it really doesn't need to be "maintained". Certainly not in this manner.

I would characterize an in car charge as an effective method of restoring a magneto that has been discharged, or wasn't properly charged in the first place.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, July 10, 2016 - 08:29 pm:

Many larger and maybe even smaller Ford shops and maybe independents had some sort of in car magnet recharger. K R Wilson was one of the better known suppliers. The Ford Service Bulletins has a few pages on it's use.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Sunday, July 10, 2016 - 09:57 pm:

Now the 'cat' is out of the car... (typo corrected) my "clown comment" with the Eveready logo makes no sense! At the time, we realized it was a simple typo on Joe's part, I just took the opportunity for some 'dry wit' That being said, this thread covered the subject quite well on all sides. I have a better understanding of the process. I expect the need to recharge the mag in my car in the not too distant future. How long might the magnetism last on a car that has not run in many years? Will the magnets weaken more from normal use, or from setting not used? Just wondering!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Sunday, July 10, 2016 - 10:24 pm:

David, I don't have a good answer for you, but I can tell you that our Fordor sat mostly untouched from 1960 until it underwent a restoration in 2012-2013. It was run a few times in 4th of july parades in the late 1990's until 2009, but the magnets were never charged, and it starts from cold on the mag, using the crank.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Sunday, July 10, 2016 - 11:11 pm:

Thanks Ed, Your answer sounds as good as one could expect. With your example, I'm more optimistic. I am anxious to try the light bulb with meter test.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Sunday, July 10, 2016 - 11:59 pm:

I think the magnets could remain effectively charged for hundreds of years if treated properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Monday, July 11, 2016 - 02:58 pm:

So... What would be considered treated properly? Are there such things as 'do's and don'ts' to maintain long life for the magneto? Just wondering!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Monday, July 11, 2016 - 03:22 pm:

The number one issue of improper treatment is applying a voltage to the field coil, especially while the motor is running. Physical trauma and heat can also cause magnets to weaken.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas Mullin on Monday, July 11, 2016 - 05:39 pm:

I think an in-car magnet recharge is not a last desperate step, but the first thing to try after verifying your mag output is low. Removing the engine, disassembling the transmission and removing the magnets to recharge individually, that is a last desperate step. Although I will grant it does a very good job of recharging the magnets.

When I bought my Model T 13 years ago, the coil box was wired wrong so that the battery voltage went direct to the common contact on the bottom of the coil box. Anytime you used "Mag" you were running DC voltage into the magneto. That is a very bad thing to do.

After correcting the wiring issues, I did an in-car recharge with 24 volts (one car and one battery connected by jumper cables). That has held up well over the years since. Maybe I should do it again with 36 volts - the recommended value.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 11:06 am:

Regarding Chris Laughary's re-posting above of a "checklist" that Tom Carnegie originally posted in March, 2015:

"Step 2" where you merely pick any pair of magnet clamp screws to align with the field coils only has a 50/50 chance of working...

Model T magnets have to be re-charged in the same orientation as they were originally charged at the factory or the charge very likely will not last very long. That is why it is important to know the existing polarity of the magnets and make sure you are charging them accordingly. Re-charging a magnet against its original polarity will seem like it works just fine, but a few days, or a few weeks later, they will generally be significantly weaker, and usually get weak enough that they will not charge the magneto.

I have had much experience with this. I have repaired several vehicles where magnets were improperly charged and went dead again. I have also worked on a couple cars where magnets were put on the flywheel in "any" orientation and then all charged "on the flywheel". The characteristics of this being that some magnets on the flywheel are strong and others very weak.

Also, the popular "article" many people like to follow, which shows how to charge the magnets in the car without removing the hogshead by setting a compass at a particular position on the hogshead also has only a "percentage of a chance of working" because over the years, the article has been re-written/re-published various times, and some of those articles have you charging the magnets with the intended polarity reversed.

If you have the hogshead off and charge your magnets, you can check them for strength before and after you charge them. If you have time, leave them set for 3 days to a week and check them again for strength. If the strength has not decreased, then you have charged them in the correct (original) orientation. If the strength has noticeably decreased in a few days, they may have been charged against their original orientation and should be charged back the other way then checked for strength again in a couple days to a week. I have dealt with this about a half dozen times. The customer always says something to the effect of: "We charged the magnets a couple months ago and wow did that make a difference! It ran great. Then a couple weeks later it started to stumble a little at lower speeds so we bought four new coils and they didn't seem to run much different. Maybe there is something wrong with the field coil?"

I also once had a customer who had me re-charge his magnets, then shortly after that he decided it would be good to replace his faulty ignition switch with a "three way" household type light switch in a metal box under his dash. He said his magneto quit working shortly after he saw a spark in that box, but that didn't have anything to do with the switch or the wiring... (Battery current went to the field coil while the engine was running and discharged the magnets).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 11:50 am:

Adam, the theory that reverse charging doesn't hold has been tested and has been refuted.
See Robert Anderson's test results here: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/526032.html?1426627330


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnCodman on Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 11:58 am:

To G. R. Cheshire - My '27 wants a lot of advance in order to start easily as well. In fact, fully retarded or with only a couple of clicks of advance, it won't on either mag or battery.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Carnegie Spokane, WA on Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 12:01 pm:

Adam, we've been through all of this. You do not need to charge in the same polarity if you saturate the magnets.

Please read this post:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/528397.html?1431523227

especially my post from Thursday, March 26, 2015 - 11:36 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Fedullo, Milford MI on Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 01:58 pm:

I hand crank started the car n MAG again today. It fired right up. I think it is a little more stable after starting when on Mag. My guess is because it is at 4.5 degrees ATDC rather than 15 ATDC when I start on batt with the lever all the way up.

For John and G.R., I am not an expert, but I suspect your timing lever is mis adjusted. With the lever all the way up the timing should be 15.5 degrees ATDC. TW makes a nice tool to dial it right in.

-Joe


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 01:59 pm:

http://www.dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Tuesday, July 12, 2016 - 02:04 pm:

Joe I have that tool and my timing is correct, I even had another t'er check it he said it was correct. On battery I can start it fully retarded, but on mag she wants 12 clicks or she won't even chuff! If however if I cheat and use the starting motor she will fire up either bat or mag fully retarded


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Patrick in Florida on Thursday, July 14, 2016 - 02:53 pm:

I did it and documented the process on the forum in 2010. It was very successful and 6 years later, my mag is still as strong as when I recharged it in 2010. Jim Patrick

see documentation: www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/159978.html


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