Hello all, well I have tried just about everything I can to get this carb on my '26 touring car to stop leaking gas to no avail! So far I have replaced the float valve and seat 4 separate times with new parts ( vitron tip needle and seat, metal tip needle and seat,gross jet ball valve, and another metal tip "original style" needle and seat) I drilled,cleaned, and replugged all of the passages which were not very dirty to begin with etc etc, and nothing seems to make a difference! every time I put the carb back on the car and turn on the gas it eventually starts leaking ranging from a steady flow to a constant drip. I have reset the float numerous times trying all different settings, starting with a quarter inch, and up to a half inch, ( presently at a half inch) the car starts and runs pretty good but after a couple of minutes, she starts dripping one drop at a time out of the intake throat, don't know what to do next? I was going to order a rebuilt carb but they never seem to have them in stock ready to ship, so I haven't as of yet! I will post some pictures and hope someone may be able to spot anything out of the ordinary that could be causing my problem ( I even pulled the ident tag off and cleaned the passage under it! I would appreciate any help rendered as I am at my wits end with this! Thank's
Seems like you've pretty well covered all possibilities Dennis. Only other thing I can think of, and this might sound silly, but I know that if anyone prior to you has overtightened the fitting where the fuel line attaches to the carburetor, it is possible that there could be a hairline crack in the cast iron carburetor casting where fuel line connects. Such a crack can be on the underside where you can't see it when the carburetor is on the car, and when the carb is off the car and gas line disconnected, the crack closes up and is nearly invisible. A "long shot" maybe, but this type of crack will allow the gasoline to leak out and run down the side of the carburetor and dribble off of the bottom of the float bowl making it hard to see that the actual leak is from underside of the fuel line connection location. (???) FWIW,.....just something else to look for,......harold
There have been instances where the cast iron body has been cracked, like where the conical inlet elbow threads in.
NH carbs isn't hard to find or expensive - try another that looks reasonable clean and move over your good parts to it. Should be working good with minor tinkering as soon as you have a good core to work with
How clean is your fuel tank? If you drain about a cup or two of gas from the carb into a light colored cup is the fuel clean, or do you see brown "sand" in the bottom of the cup. A fuel tank that has a lot of rust will continue to shed the rust and can make it nearly impossible to keep the carb from leaking.
That's funny Roger. We both made the same suggestion at the same time,.......sorry,........harold
Sometimes a carburetor is beyond hope for one reason or another. Thankfully you have the most common of all T carburetors. It might be time to get another body and transfer your good parts from one to the other.
What have you done to the bottom of the hole where the float valve screws in? If it's not flat, the gasket may not seal and gas can leak around the valve.
Harold may be onto something with the crack idea. I have a whole box of NH bodies with cracks in them. It's a very common problem.
Make sure the vent is open. The vent to the bowl being plugged will do exactly what you are experiencing. It is particularly true on Holley G's but is common on other Holleys too.
If that doesn't stop it, Steve probably has the culprit. Find or make a wooden dowel that will just barely fit in the hole. Put a piece of stickyback sandpaper -- grit about 150 or 180 -- on the end, chuck it in your drill and clean the bottom of the hole. They are often rusted to where a gasket will not hold and often have remnants of old gaskets in there that will not let it seal.
I am not understanding Steve's response. On an NH carburetor the gasket goes between the valve and the bottom of the float bowl.
Steve Jelf, Many of those cracks can be Silver soldered up.
Are you using any type of tape as a sealant on the elbow that screws into the body? If so, do not. The tape will let small fibers get into the seat and hold it open. Use the airplane fuel lube. Dan
One issue that I've seen is that when you install the new seat and gasket, an old gasket can remain in the hole. I recently repaired a NH for a friend and there were 3 gaskets in the float valve hole. This was causing his carb to leak. Just a thought pull the seat out again and poke in the float seat hole with a sharp scratch awl. An old gasket can look like part of the casting and cause a leak. Good luck. Mike
This is a Good thread to read before I rebuild the NH I removed. The $145 unit from eBay seems fine and I didn't want my inexperience to be a variable with my first Model T startup.
It goes in here.
Steve, Thanks for the pictures, I have some, somewhere, but could not find any. Mike
In 1982, I bought a new Ford F150. It had a VV carb. When u would shut it off for a while, it would not start. It had gas on top of the air cleaner and flooded. Ford rebuilt the carb 6 times to no avale. They said I was buying gas at the wrong place. It had too much alcohol in the gas. They wouldn't replace it.all they would do is rebuild it.
A friend of mine worked at a another dealer, different brand, told me the next time I filled up to bring it by and he would check the alcohol content. It was ok. We went to a junk yard and bought a carb off an old Ford. Then he rebuilt it and it worked perfect. that old carb was on the pick up 7 yrs later when I sold it.
The Red Gasket that Steve is showing is too hard to seal properly. I make my own gaskets out of softer stuff. Even then you have to have the seat really tight to stop the leak. I air check every seat I install. I put air tool oil in the gap between the carb body and the seat. Then I hold the valve down with my finger and shoot air with a rubber tipped blow gun into the inlet of the carb. If there are bubbles, I tighten the seat a little tighter. I've tried ALL the various needles and seats and they ALL will leak at the gasket. If the threads are worn in the body of the carb then Good Luck getting it tight enough to seal. I experimented with an O-ring on one carb and it worked well.
Sorry about that little off topic, but I had to vent along with Dennis.
Some of these old core carbs are just worn out from being wrenched on..or I think anyway.
Have you tried replacing the float. It may be too heavy or collapsed slightly.
had some trouble uploading the pics, here are some of them.
this is how much gas was in the bowl when it was dripping out of the throat of the carb
a couple of weeks ago after I replaced the grose jet valve with the new seat, I had a no start condition and determined that it was not getting gas for some reason, after taking everything apart and double checking, re installing etc etc, I found a very small piece of the plastic bag that the new float valve was shipped in was wedged into the valve seat opening under the valve seat! I was shocked to find it as it was so small you could barely see it! after cleaning everything up and re installing the carb, the car started and runs ok but the carb has been leaking since, even after taking it on and off and resetting the float, etc about 15 times! today i reset the float to 5/8" and am waiting to see if it will shut the gas flow off or not. the really strange thing is that when I check the valve by blowing into the inlet and putting pressure on the float,it works perfectly and shuts off to the point where I cannot blow through it at all! it even works like it should when I turn the carb upside down and blow into the inlet, it shuts off with just the weight of the empty float!!!
The float valve in picture looks like a ball type rather than the Ford design tapered needle and seat.
My experience with the ball involved a complete tank full of gas on the garage floor. This was over 40 years ago, I replaced the ball type check valve and to this day always use a shut off valve.
I think others have alluded to problems.
Try putting a vacuum on the float needle. You can do this by inverting the carb and sucking on the inlet, then place your tongue over the inlet hole. The vacuum should persist for a long time.
gas tank condition? If there is any trash in the tank, that will cause that. Dan
Sounds to me like the float is full of gas not air. Take the float off put in a can of water and see if it floats. If that's good, heat the water very hot, put the float in and weight it down and see if bubbles come out of the float. Shaking the float will also detect liquid
Get a soup pan and fill it with water then bring it to a boil. Remove from the stove and take a pair of tongs and dunk the float in and hold it down. Look for bubbles...the hot water will raise the air pressure inside the hollow brass float and if the seam is compromised or there is a pin hole it will leak like a tire with soap on it.
Something is leaking by if the gas is running out the end, either the seat failed at the gasket or your float is sinking. A cracked inlet will drip but not come out of the carburetor but liquids are funny and can wick up and drip in unusual places. A leaky roof can drive you nuts to find that one nail several feet away!
Well, It's still leaking with the float at 5/8", I did test the float last week and it is empty and not sinking. the picture is not a ball valve, it is the top of the "original type" steel tipped needle valve (the second new seat and valve) that is showing. the gas coming from the tank is clean and so is the screen in the bowl/shutoff. I am thinking that unless I screwed up the passageways somehow (either plugging or unplugging the proper ones then the only logical explanation would be a crack as suggested or the seat is not sealing somehow? I am at a loss but will remove it again for a closure inspection tomorrow and try to order a rebuilt somewhere that is reasonable. the best price i have was for langs, but they don't seem to ever have them in stock.
The original style metal tipped needle is a bad repro since the surface hasn't been finished in recent batches. Still it's the best option among the new parts - you may just have to finish it as Stan Howe has described in several postings here:
I fixed the surface of my leaking original needle with an electric drill held in the vice, smoothing the rotating needle with a file. Then I smacked it against the seat - and it still seals, more than a year after
I had the same problem, went through all above, it turned out to be the float. The leak in it was so slight I didn't notice it right away, but it had just enough gas in it to keep it from closing tight.
You shouldn't have to buy a new carburetor. Go back and read again what Stan said yesterday. He restores carburetors and knows his stuff.
I agree the gaskets should be a little softer material. Also, those threads are not the strongest, and you can't wrench down on that seat too hard, or you will twist the whole thing off.
thank's for all of the suggestions, I am trying them one by one,I will check the vent to the bowl tomorrow, b ut I am almost positive that all passages were clean. The weird thing is that it did not leak before i took it apart and replaced the grose jet ball valve with a new valve and seat and cleaned and replugged the passages. It also seems to work perfectly when I blow into it in that if I turn the carb upside down and try to blow into the inlet, I cannot get any air through it until I turn it rightside up and then the valve opens like it should!!! everytime I put it back on the car and turn the gas on it will leak!
I had the same problem but jumped to the $145 eBay solution because of inexperience with these carbs.
Ironically, after reading this thread I'm ready to tackle the rebuild. I think...
Chris, go ahead. I think you'll be pleasantly surprised. It ain't rocket surgery. Let the MTFCA carburetor book be your guide, and if you get stuck on anything ask here. Somebody will know what to do.
I rebuilt a 26 NH and it works great but had to order a rebuilt NH because I needed another carb for my 27. Really just want a used one to build but couldn't find one on the classifieds. I looked for 4 months but never could buy one, so I got a rebuilt coming. Didn't really wanna waste the money on a rebuilt but I needed it. Tim
Tim: I know where there is a 5 gal bucket full of carbs, My shop. Just down I59 at exit 141. Dan
I took it apart and rechecked everything, tried 3/4 inch setting for the float and it still drips!Can anyone tell me if these passages (the ones with the wire going through) are the correct pathways? I don't understand how it could be working correctly when blowing into it off the car and then not shut off when the gas is turned on?
oops!!!!! forgot the pics!
I haven't had very good luck with grose valves. I find the needle and seat work much better. It might be because of some small rust particles or dirt in the fuel which are more likely to be displaced by the needle than by a ball. I have no problem when driving the car, but when parked, it will leak a few drops a day, so I turn off the valve at the sediment bulb when I park it. Also a good tap on the top of the carburetor when I park it seems to help get the needle seated.
Thank's Norm, my problems began when I removed the grosejet and replaced the seat and needle, she began leaking and I can't get her to stop no matter what I try! So far I have tried 3 brand new valves and needles to no avail, I even tried putting the grosejet valve back in and I still cannot get it to shut off. The weird part is that when I apply suction to the inlet and tipp the carb upside down it opens and closed just like it is supposed to do, It holds the suction!!! but when I put ist back on the car, she begins dripping!!
Go back to July 11 and read the posts at 3:06 PM and 3:14 PM. Have you checked the vent and the valve hole?
Looks like he's run a wire through it.
Dennis, Check the float again. On mine, there was very little gas in it. Not noticeable when you picked it up. For some reason, I just shook it and I heard a slight amount of fluid in it. I put another float in it, and that solved the problem. There was just enough in it to keep the float valve from sealing.
Here is a photo of the NH passages.
The car was hard starting awhile back, and on a whim, I replaced the float valve with a new grosejet valve, it did not leak before or after i replaced the valve but it did not effect the starting either at the time. I decided to replace the ring gear over the winter because i had shoulder problems and it was difficult to hand crank. While the engine was removed, I decided to clean the carb and replace the grosejet valve because I read on the forum that sometimes they cause problems,I scanned the forum and read the carb rebuilding posts then followed directions on cleaning all of the passages and then replugging the proper ones with brass rod. ALL of the passages were pretty clean to begin with but I did them anyway according to directions and advice hear on the forum. At the time, I replaced the float valve and seat with a "new original style" metal tipped valve and seat. When I reinstalled the engine and carb, I turn the gas on and after a couple of seconds she started dripping gas. Since then, I have replaced the float valve and seat with, another steel tipped valve, a vitron tipped valve and seat and I tried to put the grosejet back in to no avail. I now have the carb apart again (this is about the 15th time) and am rechecking everything and going over this thread trying to find the problem. very frustrating, because when I apply suction to the inlet, the valve appears to be working fine! I am now going to recheck the float and see what I can find as per an above post. Thank you all for all of the suggestions, this defies logic!
That ruff looking base for the seat is not helping. Are you using fuel lube on the threads of the seat? Use it on the threads of all the jets. Dan
I don't recall everything that's been posted in this thread. But if you keep repeating the same fixes and they're not working, it's time to look toward some other area. Is there an outside chance your fuel line is cracked?
That left picture prompts me to ask again: Have you applied Stan's suggestion?
I've got to hand it to Stan. He's in the business of rebuilding carbs yet he takes the time to help someone else. Good job Stan.
Well, after that I probably should offer more help. Feet hurt anyway. Trying to break in a new pair of work shoes that are killing my feet. $275 Red Wings.
So. Go out around the back of the shop where you keep the old Plymouth you are going to get running some day. Steal one of the Lead wheel weights off of it. Take it back in the shop and beat the end of it down until it is about .050 thick and half an inch square. Take your hole punch and punch a 1/4 hole in it. Screw it on the end of the seat -- if you fool with it you can get it on there. Go get your wife's good scissors out of her sewing drawer and cut the lead close around the seat. Now you have a lead gasket that will seal. Take the gasket back off. Put the needle in your lathe or drill press and clean it up with the sharpening stone out of your fishing tool box. None of them will hold from the store. I don't care who is selling them, the new ones ALL leak.
Put seat in a 5/16's nut. The 1/4 - 32 threads will clear the 5/15 sae thread. Set it on the bench or the table of your drill press.
Set the needle in the seat and hit the end of it with a lbbfh just hard enough to make the seal but not hard enough to ruin the seat surface that is setting in the 5/16 nut.
Now Put the seat in and tighten it up until just before you strip the threads or break the end off the seat.
Best gasket you will even have. Takes far less time to do all this than to type how to do it unless you have to go steal a lead wheel weight from the neighbor's pickup and have to wait until after dark to do it.
I actually make them a dozen or so at a time by cutting the lead gasket from a 1/16 thick sheet with a 7/16 hole cutter, punching a hole in the center, threading them on a rod and machining them to size in the lathe. It is hard to cut them to size with a hole cutter and then get the center hole in the right place.
It is pretty hard to get the hard fiber gaskets the suppliers send with the new seats to seal unless every surface is just perfect. I throw those in the gasket drawer to use in other places. These lead ones work far better.
Note that this was free information and worth exactly what you paid for it. Your mileage may vary. Handling of raw lead may not be OSHA approved. Risk of failure is high with any Model T repair not done by a certified shop. Proceed at your own risk. Watch for fallen rock. May be impassable when wet. Trail not maintained by Forest Service. Watch for livestock on road. Open Range. Deer Crossing. Elk Crossing. (Montana only) Watch for Mountain Goats on road. Fraudulent voters will be prosecuted. Auction Sale on left - slow. Park in designated area only.
This information was not approved by an woman and therefore may be inaccurate, faulty and subject to interpretation.
I could do more but I gotta go back to the shop. Working all weekend. Got half a dozen done this week, fighting with a couple Holley G's and a Stromberg OC-2 that need to be in the mail tomorrow.
Need a day off. Need to get my swather working. Got hay to put up.
For the city bumpkins like me:
Swather - a device on a mowing machine for raising uncut fallen grain and marking the line between cut and uncut grain.
Close but no bannanner. This is a swather. It is for cutting hay when it is hot in the summer so you can bale it and then stack it and feed it to cows in the winter when it is cold and snow blowing.
This is a New Holland 1495, it is not the one I have now but is almost the same. Sold this one a couple years ago and bought a different one.
Thanks, Stan, I'll tell Google dictionary to update their definition.
People ask Me how I ever left Montana and what I miss. I must be losing my mind but I miss haying season. Hot. Hard. Risky. A mechanics nightmare but I loved it all the same and still miss it. Farmers here can't believe we only got 1 cutting and was sometimes lucky to get that. Thousands of miles on a swather just like that one. Can't tell you how many times I've had to cut fawns out of the conditioner. Have a good season and don't burn any nailers down.
That was supposed to be bailer.
Richard, you wouldn't believe the difference a few years has made here. Pivot irrigation with fertilizer, new breeds of Alfalfa and grasses, more and more Sanfoin, yields are what would have been considered impossible just 20 years ago. Those big irrigated places do not have a weed in the entire field. Some of the farms along the Missouri are getting 5 cuttings of Alfalfa.
As opposed to my place where there is usually not much hay. I have quite a bit of water but don't irrigate much because fixing carburetors is far more profitable than growing hay, my machinery is all old and worn out and I am getting old and worn out and have little desire to be in the field not later than 7 like I used to. Last year I didn't even put it all up, just let the Deer and Elk have it for the winter. Should have bought some cows. BTW, my water right -- which is now just about all the water out of Spokane Creek and some springs across the highway that runs over to my place -- dates back to 1877. The ditch system was put in in the spring of 1904 and updated in 1950. The fields were broke with an ox team and a walking plow in 1870, a prior right below me is 1871, those fields have been farmed since 1866. By law, if they call for water and don't have enough I have to shut mine off but together we don't use all the right so it never happens.
This is just to make you homesick for Montana.
Back to the shop. Holley G's await.
My feet still hurt but duty calls.
can anyone tell me if the passages with the brass plugs in them are the correct ones to plug? Just want to make sure that I didn't maybe plug a wrong passage way when I cleaned the carb. thank's, Stan, I am going to try a different gasket and see what happens.
I suggest you follow Stan's advice and the others that have posted. Everything I have read looks to be good advice.
The plugs look correct but would have nothing to do with over filling.
Also; How clean is your tank? Even a little sediment getting to the valve could cause anything from a drip to more.
Stan, I am going to try it tomorrow, in the meantime, you need to get yourself a good pair of sneakers!
Gas tank is clean and has been since I epoxied it a few years ago, that kit they sell worked really good!
A fantastic carb gasket how-to from Stan.
A vocabulary word of the day from Mark.
Hey Stan - as a woman I would happily approve any of your informational bits of wisdom
I was sad to have missed Montana this year as I wanted to come up and say Hi.
Stan, thanks for the float seat gasket trick. I'll try that next time I take a carb apart. The Ruckstell I bought from you a few years back is going great.
update:, I followed stan's directions and created a lead gasket from a small fishing sinker which worked perfectly! my ongoing saga is this, I gave the metal valve a good smack with a heavy hammer but could not get it to seal (kept checking by sucking into the valve seat with the valve in it and no matter what I did, I could not get it to hold suction so I am thinking this brand new "original style" valve and seat were either bad to begin with or I messed them up somehow!) I then put the lead washer on the new vitron tipped seat which did hold suction, and reinstalled them into the carb. when I turned the gas on, it did not leak, great!!!!!!, I then took the car for a ride and she started up very good, drove ok, but when I got up to about 35 MPH, the car started sputtering and stalled out, I thought it might be the mag or something but while checking it out I decided to try the starting procedure from scratch and when I primed her, she started right up and ran fine, so I figured it was a fuel starvation problem,(then I realized that I did not reset the float back to 1/4 inch and it was set at about a 1/2 inch) I made it home fine (just did not push the speed), when I shut the car off, I noticed the car leaking again, but when I gave it a tap with a screwdriver handle, she stopped leaking so I am thinking that the vitron tipped valve is now sticking open somehow, which is why I wanted to put the metal one in to begin with! Either way, Stan's advice was golden and I want to thank him very much for sharing this wisdom!!!
See? I told ya.
I had the same experience with the rubber tip sometimes sticking, so I used an original from my little stash of miscellaneous used stuff. So far, no leaks. If your metal tip needle is a repro it's probably rough and needs smoothing. You can go back and refer to Stan's advice on what to do about that.
is the seat for the viton tip the same as the metal one? I mean,can I just exchange the viton for the metal without changing the seat? just wondering!
The same seat should be good for both. What kind of condition it's in is another question.
Dennis, it will work, but you have to polish the needle on those new seats to make them smooth enough to seal. You can use either scotchbrite or a fine grade of emery cloth. See the fifth photo in this thread:
Nice hay. I'd have played hell back in the day getting through it with my old 9 n ford with the sickle bar but I'd love to see it shake it. Ah those weren't the days. And yes I missing all that stress. Be there in Oct. they've closed all my old hunting grounds and any left up in the Ruby and Gallitin the wolves and grizzley' run the elk out. My cardiologist says no more beef. They'd turn me into Gandi if they could.
There has been enough ongoing complaining about the new needles being so rough that they won't seal that you would think some of the vendors would get concerned about it but they aren't. Still selling crap that won't work without work and I'm with Steve, I dig through my boxes for parts as much as possible. I also have the ability to make new needles. I grind/regrind them on my valve machine with a bunch of different adapters for each size needle. I just did about ten of them for Holley G's since I am working on a batch of them. They are as bad or worse than the NH needles and even more expensive.
I also ground a set of forming dies for smacking the seats with a good whack. I can also make new seats but it's easier and quicker to redo old ones. All you have to do is take a correct size ball end mill and run it in the hole to clean up the surface, insert the die and whack it and it forms a good seat.
I recently made a set of needles and seats for a carb on a 28 Marmon. Kind of interesting, probably didn't actually make much money but was a change from trying to get Holley G's to quit leaking.
Back to the shop.
Richard, I have no doubt I'm going to die but if I can possibly help it I'm not going to die tired or hungry for a good beefsteak.
You're right, the old Elk herds are gone. There are positives and negatives to both sides of the Wolf re-introduction, if they had been able to keep them in the Park it was an idea that was needed there but not where we are trying to raise beef. You can now legally hunt them in Montana, they got about 150 of them last year. Hard to hunt. I've never seen one but I'm pretty close to the urban centers.
they are new ones Steve!
thank's Royce, i'll give it a try.
Today, I took her for a ride and she started better than she has in a long time so I tried to pull start and she started with only 2 primer pulls and started on the 2nd pull! Since I've owned her, it has always taken 4 to 6 primer pulls and just as many cranks before she would start! What I don't know is if the improved starting was caused by resetting the timing or all of the messing around with the carb! On the test drive today, she seemed to be a little sluggish until she gained momentum and then seemed to buck just a little when opened up at about 35 mph. I started and stopped numerous times and the carb did not leak. when I got home, I pulled the carb off again and reset the float back down to 1/4 inch and will take her out tomorrow to see if that stops the minor "bucking" (i'm thinking that maybe she couldn't get quite enough fuel when wide open with the float set at about 3/8" so I set it back to 1/4") Thank's everyone, I would have given up a long time ago if not for all of these suggestions and encouragement!!!!!
update; my T is starting better than it ever has since I've owned it (today, 2 primer pulls ,then 1 pull started it!!) What I did notice was that when I get her up to speed, she bucks a little bit, so I have been trying to figure out why and found that the "sweet spot" has changed on my spark advance! It used to run best with the spark advance all they way down till it couldn't move anymore but now if I back it off to about midway between up and down, she stops bucking and runs good! should I be concerned? )also, I noticed that there is a slapping sound coming from the engine when the spark advance is all the way down that seems to go away a bit when it is in the middle position)
You can check your timing adjustment with this: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG97.html
so many variables, no 2 Ts will ever have the exact same spark lever position. Since each T is a unique combination of parts and adjustment just start it fully retarded, advance to smooth idle with increased RPM, no further.
Drive down a straight level road at moderate speed and work the spark lever from fully retarded to slowly advance till you find the sweet spot. advancing any further will only cause more wear and heat from over advanced running. You will feel and hear the difference as you move the lever through that sweet spot.
That is one of the great things about owning a model T. Each is unique and takes a while to get to know her. After any change or service, she will have changed a little bit again. Enjoy. Also make sure you are in the sweet spot with carb mixture. With the engine warm, with the car parked set a moderately fast RPM and run the needle in till the mixture gets to lean and the engine starts to flounder. Slowly open it till the engine speeds up and smooths out. Keep opening the needle a little more till the engine starts to run rough again from the mixture being to rich. Back up to the sweet spot. I try to err slightly on the lean side.
Let us know.
I felt the car bucking at high speed (35mph) and it seemed to be getting worse so I pulled the carb once again and took it apart, cleaned everything, (tried to get the metal tipped "original style) float valve to seal but could not get it to hold suction no matter what so I reinstalled the vitron tipped seat and valve and it held suction), reset the float to 1/4" and reinstalled the carb. then I decided to check the timer and noticed that it seemed a little loose so that I could turn it with my hand so I decided to reset the timing according to Steve's suggestion and link. When I went to remove the plug wire from the #1 champion X, the whole ceramic portion of the plug was very loose and seemed to be coming apart, it was also extremely sooty! I pulled the plug, took it apart,cleaned everything, and re gapped it, and just set it up for the timing procedure, which I will continue tomorrow because it is hot and muggy out and at this point am having second thoughts about owning a "T"!!!!!
Don't give up Dennis, you may not believe it now, but half the fun of owning these 100+ year old cars is tinkering with them and getting them to run just as they did back in the day. When i first acquired my car, it had sat in a garage for almost 20 years and when i got it running it was temperamental to say the least. After going through all the systems, and with lots of help from this forum, it now runs the way a T should, and has never let me down. In the end, all the hard work you do now, will be forgotten when you are driving your well running T down the road with a big grin on your face.
Dennis, John is right. It takes awhile but at some point you'll realize your Model T just finished a tour without a breakdown. Then you'll know it's so worth it. Please hang in there and get it right.
There'll never be enough Model T mechanics around to help those of us mechanically challenged. Someday you'll be depended on for your NH expertise.Stan probably won't be around for no more than another 50 years and we're going to need you.
Thank's, I just ordered a freshly rebuilt carb, but I have to ship this core first before they will ship the rebuilt one so it looks like she'll be out of commission 'til it gets here, in the meantime I'll go over the timer and timing to make sure that is ok, I can't believe how sooty and loose that plug was, no wonder it was missing at speed, I'm surprised that it was idling ok!
You got the carb to stop leaking and it now runs good up to 35 but cuts out. You found a bad spark plug, you fixed that, you cleaned the timer.
Have you done a real fuel flow test out the bottom of the carb? I mean, let it run into a glass jar for a minuet or so watching the flow to see if it stays the same or peters out some. Could be that some of the tank lining has come off blocking the fuel line or sediment bowl. Let the fuel sit over night and see if there is anything that settles out. Just because the tank has been lined does not mean that there are no contaminants that could have gotten into the tank like rust from the baffles if they did not get fully coated.
What condition is the engine in; old tired no or low compression, new rebuilt good compression or in between?
If running coils, what condition are they in?
Seems to me you have been stuck on this carb issue and from the sounds of it have got that licked and now want to send off for a "rebuilt" carb.
Why not keep the carb, check the compression, put some new plugs in, service and time the timer and go drive it some. 35 is not bad for a T and if it's cutting out in the 35 MPH range might be a fuel flow from the tank to carb not the carb. Might be also that if it's a tired engine that over 35 is just don't want to go and poops out. Or you need to open the spray needle more because you are running too lean for the speed and need.
Both the rebuilt carbs and the new NH carbs come with a Grose jet installed. You have to swap that for a needle and seat to get reliability from the new carb.
I have decided to keep my carb and deal with it, can't get the paid vendor to answer my emails, but in the meantime, I am trying to reset the timing according to instructions that were posted but am having a problem. I have the number 1 cylinder on the comp stroke with the pin set at 3:30/9:30, but when I try to turn the timer counterclockwise until it can't go any further,it doesn't stop as per the instructions, I can turn it back far enough for the wires to prevent it going any further, but that is quite a ways from where it was (the rod holder is almost in the 6 o'clock position, is this normal? I think it is an anderson timer. thank's
The reason we introduced the current needle and seats, is the reproduction ones on the market several years ago were the wrong specifications. The opening in the seat has to be .125, or your car is going to starve for gas on a hard pull. I agree on the gaskets, they should be softer. The red and gray gaskets seem to be the same hardness, but where do you get a softer gasket? We are about out of our current stock. That is almost 2000 in just three years,so I guess some of them are working ok, at least the one on the car I drove the past week on the Finger Lakes Tour did.
Did you take the timer rod off the timer. Take the spark plugs out and hook the wires back up to them. Put your thumb over the No 1 hole (key off) crank the car till you feel compression. Look in the hole and watch the piston come up to TDC then go a touch more till it's just starting down. The pin should be on the down side of horizontal (drivers side).
With the timing lever up turn the key on. Turn the timer (rod off) clockwise if the coil is buzzing till it stops then turn counter clockwise till it just starts to buzz, turn key off. Bend rod to fit into hole if needed or as needed.
yes, I have the timer rod off of the timer and the piston is on the downward slide after compression,
I can turn the timer counterclockwise until the rod holder is almost down all the way to 6 o'clock, so, should i turn the key on, then turn the timer clockwise until it begins buzzing?
This is what the new ones look like, at least the ones I am getting. They all leak unless you work on them.
They need to be a ground tip instead of cut with a forming tool.
I have not bought any new ones for a few months so they may have been improved. The vendor I got these from has had "feedback" from me.
Dennis, yes. Refer again to the link I posted above. See steps 7 and 8.
Thank's steve, I have it printed out and am following it but I got confused on #2 in that my timer can keep on turning counterclockwise farther that I thought it should, in that there didn't seem to be a "stopping" point, but I'll try it tomorrow!
Stan, the valve and seat that I have been trying to get to seal was bought only a couple of weeks ago and if I am not mistaken, the ad stated that it was the "improved original style", that's why I bought it to replace the grose jet, but there is no way that I can get it to seal and hold suction, where as the vitron tipped one that i bought would immediately seal and hold suction, the only trouble is that it seems to be erratic,in that sometimes it sticks open, so I believe you are correct about the new ones not seating properly!
PS, Stan, those new valves and seats sure do look "pretty" though!
Update Update Update...
I am sorry I reversed the direction to rotate the timer. Put it back at it's starting point with the rod mounting tab at approx 12 o'clock. (see below)
Turn the key on.
Turn it counter clockwise if its buzzing till it stops. Then turn it clockwise till it starts buzzing again. If it's not buzzing when you turn the key on, rotate clockwise till it starts buzzing.
If you do have an Anderson timer you should take timer off and re position it. The flapper could get hung up on the contacts in the case.
You will not get shocked it's only battery voltage at the timer.
I am very sorry about that.
update, I reset the timing, (the rod lined up after I set it at 3:30/9:30, so it appears that the timing was ok to begin with) The car was still bucking slightly while driving , but seemed to be starting and running ok on idle so I went ahead and ordered the rebuilt carb and am awaiting it's arrival so I can hopefully eliminate that as being the problem and move on! Thank's
Four things can cause bucking while driving: 1. Lack of compression on one or more cylinders or uneven compression. 2. Timing too far advanced.
3. Mixture usually too rich. All the above assume the coil box, timer, and coils are good. 4. One of more coils not sparking or spark plug not firing.
Most likely cause of bucking would be spark too advanced or fuel mixture too rich. The fuel mixture sweet spot changes with warm up and also with altitude change.
Most Model T.s run best with timing rod about 3/4 down for normal driving at about 35 mph. If you are running on magneto, you can move the rod up and down to find that spot. If you pull it past that spot it could get noisy and buck. Only pull it all the way down if you are going about 45 mph on level or slight downgrade.
thank's norm, the rebuilt carb should arrive tomorrow sometime and I will see if it makes a difference or not. In the meantime ,I have discovered yet another problem that I don't know if it is related or not! When I reinstalled the engine after replacing the ring gear, the coil ring and magnets, the car seemed to run fine on mag so I assumed everything was ok, but the other day I took it out and it was starting and running good (except for the "slight bucking) on battery, but when I switched to mag, she backfired and quit on me, I restarted on bat, and tried it again but she quits when I switch to mag. today, I pulled the mag post off because I had the same problem a few years ago and found the mag post to have a clump of brake lining fibers on it which I cleaned and it has been working good since then (it actually used to run much better on mag then on bat), but when I pulled the mag post out today, she was clean, so I am assuming that I probably screwed up something when I rebuilt it!
Dennis, Search the forum on how to test mag output. If it is good, failure to to run on Mag may be the switch contacts. I've had to bend the contacts on my switch a couple times to get consistent running.
update, I checked the mag post before putting it back in and the insides were loose so I tightened it up and reinstalled it. I started the car on bat and when I switched to mag, it still ran so I am thinking that it will be ok but I didn't get the chance to drive around to check it further. Question, if the car runs on mag, that means that the magneto is ok right?
Sort of. With a fully charged magneto in good condition you can start easily on MAG and never have to use the battery. With a weak one, the car may run on it OK but you have to use the battery to get started.
It is possible he doesn't have a coil box lid or the strip that fits in the coil box between #2 and #3. I have seen loose coils cause the intermittent issue he is seeing and for the reasons above.
That fits with Norm's #4 possibility.
update: well, I installed the rebuilt carb and took a ride today, although she starts a lot quicker with the starter and hand crank on battery, she would not start on mag. she runs pretty good at slow speeds (10 to 20mph) but starts missing at higher speeds (still bucking a bit) when I switch to mag, the car will run, but misses noticeably worse than when on battery.I pulled the plugs and this is what they looked like #1 to#4 left to right
I took a compression test and cylinders 1,2, and 3 were at 36psi with cylinder #4 at 38 is this normal?, I am assuming that I have some type of electrical problem seeing as it is missing with the new carb as it was with the old.
I have often been quoted as saying most carburetor problems are electrical. You probably need to get your coils rebuilt. We all have to do it once at least.
Dennis, Stan's nailer, which you corrected to bailer, needs further correction to baler. A bailer is what you might use when your boat is sinking. A baler makes hay bales.
Allan from down under.
Royce, these coils were rebuilt by ron patterson a few years ago and are like new still (they only have a couple of thousand miles on them, if that) I do have a couple of spares that I can try switching them with to test and will do so tomorrow. I wonder if the timer could be bad? This problem has to have something to do with the way I put her back together after replacing the ring gear, which led me to replace the coil ring and recharge the magnets, I got in over my head for a bit and am now trying to chase down whatever this miss is that was not a problem before I began the project.
update; I pulled the champion x's out and replaced them with some clean champion 25's,then took a ride, the car started ok, but ran even worse in that it was missing terribly at all speeds, so I turned around and came back. Today, I took the champion 25's out and #1 and #2 plugs were sooted up (black) and the #3 and #4 plugs looked like they were not firing at all! I am wondering if I have some type of problem with the coil box from removing it and the timer when I took the engine out. I'll go over it tomorrow and see what I can find!
Sounds like you have a failed copper ring on the rear intake port.
Would that cause this type of thing Royce?
because that is a good possibility,I had some problems getting the manifolds to seal and decided to use the glands and copper rings when I put it together! Also, whenever I take the plugs out, the front two are always "sootier" than the rear two!
It could also be a leak in the manifold. I've had a cast iron intake manifold rust from the inside so badly that it developed a pinhole that was not visible when it was installed. Also sometimes the intake can crack next to the port, again hard to see with it installed.
It is easy to have a copper gland sip slightly and get cut while installing. or it could be any number of other things causing a leak, pitting on the block or on the manifold for example.
Dennis - You said,...."decided to use the glands and copper rings...."
You also said that you had some problems "getting the manifolds to seal"......
I take that to mean that you used the copper rings and steel glands.
Royce is talking about the newer style copper rings that are formed with built-in copper glands instead of the earlier style separate steel gland rings.
Those steel gland rings that you used Dennis are something that could be causing the leak. Sometimes, the steel rings are too wide and actually prevent the manifold(s) from squeezing the copper gasket tight enough to seal, especially if there is any "pitting" on the either (or both) the block and manifolds as Royce mentioned. This grinding to somewhat "narrow" the width of one or more of the steel glands to prevent the manifold from being squeezed tightly against the block (therefore compressing copper gasket) is especially important if either the manifold(s) or machined surface of the block have ever been milled to provide a flatter surface or to remove any pits. Such milling would of course narrow the factory-provided space for the steel glands which could be a cause for leaking, or, as you said Dennis, caused the problem you mentioned with "some problems in getting the manifolds to seal!"
Just a thought of something else to check,....FWIW,....harold
New from the factory, it would have been unnecessary. But today, for the various reasons Royce and Harold detailed, I apply high temp RTV with the copper rings.
Thank's for the input, I will check these things out tonight!
Steve, which do you use, the copper RTV?
well, Don't I feel like an idiot!, after going over this thread, it dawned on me that about 5 years or so ago, I snapped a manifold stud off flush with the manifold and to make a long story short, screwed it up real bad trying to drill it out, I even put a hole in the water jacket! I Jb welded the hole and a new stud and smoothed it all out and forgot about it until now because so much has gone on since then and I have not had to remove the manifolds until I took the engine out for the ring gear/magneto fiasco! well, when Royce mentioned that my problems could be a manifold leak, it dawned on me that I had gone through all of this a few years ago. I just took a look at it and it appears that all of this screwing around taking the carb on and off and removing and re installing the manifolds then having trouble sealing it, the stud finally came loose and the the old JB weld began pulling out of the block so I don't think that stud (the second from the firewall, was holding the intake manifold in tight enough, so maybe this was causing the rough running problem in the first place! I really should have it welded and re tapped, but would have to try and find someplace to do it and have the car towed there. I just removed the manifolds and cleaned out the hole, it is NOT a pretty sight! I have to figure out someway to either get a stud to stay in there or have it welded, my only other choice would be another block, which makes me sick to think about!
Hellcoil or Keensert.
Dennis, if you go to the post "Blown hole in block" of Aug 8, you will see reference to Keenserts as Royce indicated. I am almost certain this would be a satisfactory repair for you. You LHD guys don't even have to worry about working around the steering shaft when drilling out the hole for the insert!
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
This is the mess I left myself with after cleaning it out, It looks to me like a part of the original bolt may be left in the bottom of the hole, but I just don't remember,I think I got scared and quit when I saw the water jacket being violated! How deep does a stud go into the block before bottoming out?
I am checking out the thread on the "hole in the block",
"How deep does a stud go into the block before bottoming out?"
Just remove one of the other studs and measure it.
Thank's, been there, done that, that's how I wound up in this mess, I'll wait for the new one to get here!LOL
Ideally, it would not bottom out at all
that would make sense Scott, just looking at the picture, it seems that maybe part of the stud is still in the block, can't tell for sure.
Dennis, if you decide to use a thread insert to make the repair, there is probably no need to worry about the bit of remaining stud, if that is what it is. It should be drilled out when making the hole for the thread insert.
hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
What is the consciences of Lang's part 6212GJNH?
This is the Modern style replacement for needle and seat.
Like most "modern" improvements it is a very poor substitute for the original design. The Grose jets stick either open or closed at various times. Not too good!
Agree with Royce. It has achieved a bad reputation. If you're buying new, I would go with this: https://www.modeltford.com/item/6212OR.aspx
that's the original one that I bought Steve, could not get it to seat properly no matter what I did! This rebuilt carb came with a viton tipped valve that seems to work ok, but I will probably switch it out and take another shot at getting the one that you have the link for eventually!
Are you sure gas isn't leaking around the valve seat? Did you follow Stan's advice on that? Have you dressed the tip, as Royce and Stan suggested?
yes, I tried just about everything listed and could not get it to seal, so I chalked it up to having received a bad one and will get back to it at a later point. I replaced the carb with a rebuilt one, and am now trying to address the possible manifold problems, thank's
Allan, I am concerned that, because of the way the hole is damaged, I won't be able to get an insert to stay in it, but if that is a piece of the old stud inside the hole, I might be able to get it out and then get an insert to work, but I am a little leery of drilling it out further and maybe destroying the block by going in too deep! I am going to try and find out exactly how deep a normal stud hole is before I mess with it any further!
This hole is about a half inch in diameter, can anyone tell me the sizes of inserts/threads, that I should try? I don't know if I will be able to get an insert to grab hold or not, the new studs arrived and they are only 2 3/4" long, which is the same length that the old studs protrude from the block, so they are too short, so I am going to have to go with some other kind of bolt or stud to see what i can get to work with the keeper!
well, I tried to drill,tap and insert a 9/16" ezlok thread insert the best I could, but it pulled out when I put the stud in so I am going to try a 5/8" one tomorrow and see if I can get it to bite, I don't dare go any bigger though for fear of opening up that water jacket any more. If the 5/8's one doesn't work, the only thing that I can think of is to have it towed somewhere to have the hole welded up so that I can re tap it to original size. Both the studs I ordered were too short and the repro keeper that they sent was also totally different from the ones that I have and will not work, what a PITA!
part of the problem I am having is that the tap has a graduated thread to start it in with and I can't get it in far enough to get a decent amount of threads cut in before she bottoms out! If I could have cut the tap in half,I think it would have worked!
Dennis, you need a bottoming tap, it has a very short taper section, if any.You can sacrifice a taper tap by carefully grinding it down to the straight cutting portion, but this has to be done carefully so as to not damage the cutting edges.
You can start forming the thread with a "plug" tap, but you have to recut & finish it with a "bottoming tap". Please consider seeking some on-site assistance in this procedure.
Thank's, I wasn't aware that there were different types of taps, I just went to the local hardware store and asked them for the size I needed (9/16")! I'll look today for a bottoming tap, it looks like that may work for me!
Just my 2 cents, If you do any grinding on your tap, be very careful to not get it hot. Have the water tray handy, keep cooling BEFORE it gets hot! The hardness of the tap will take more grinding effort and you don't want to lose any temper of the steel. This has been done thousands of times to "save the day" Usually cheaper than buying a single bottom tap.
I would not worry about drilling into the water jacket. Just install the stud and the thread repair with sealant. Been there done that.
I'll second Royce's comment. Hitting the water jacket is no big deal. Many cars have head bolts which go into water jackets when manufactured. YOu just need sealant when re-fitting.
If you keep chasing the hole with inserts which pull out and then have to go up a step and have the same thing happen, you may end up having to have the hole plugged with a solid plug and then drilling and tapping that. This is one occasion where it is best to bite the bullet and go big to start with.
Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.
Hey Dennis, for cryin' out loud get somebody with a little knowledge in there to help/advise you. You're creating more problems than you already have. I understand you want to learn but being taught is part of learning too and frankly there's a bit too much being suggested here. You NEED eyes on help.
Dennis, I live near you in Snyder. If I can be of any help, please call 839-0995. I will be home tonight, any time after 5. I have tools and several model T's.
9/16"? Really? If it's that big a hole Allan's idea seems the way to go.
In any case, I'd certainly take up the offer of experienced help.
The typical inserts for a 3/8" - 16 NC repair use a 1/2" X 13 tapped hole which requires a drill sized 27/64".
Part of the trouble is that I have an odd shaped hole which is slightly smaller at the bottom. I could not get enough threads cut into it because my tap was tapered and did not catch until it was almost bottomed out so I only got the 9/16" insert to grab on the couple of threads that were there, it was not enough to hold the insert in when I put the stud and keeper nut on, she pulled everything back out as I tried to tighten it. I have two different size inserts ordered (9/16" and 5/8" inch EZLOK) along with two different size bottoming taps and will try and get the 9/16" to work, but if it doesn't, I will try the 5/8" one. If that doesn't work, I will try and have the hole welded and re drilled and tapped. I spoke with someone local that is willing to help, so I am now awaiting the taps to see what can be done.this is the mess I have at present!
Dennis, if there is doubt about 9/16 stripping out, go straight to the 5/8. That will give you the best chance. This is not the time to cut corners.
Allan from down under.
What size chuck do you have on your hand drill?
Ok, I will try the 5/8" when it gets here,I have a Ryobi cordless, not sure about the chuck size but the 9/16" drill and tap fit ok with room to spare.
I would get a piece of steel bar stock 3/8 in thick or thicker and at least 1 in wide to make a drill guide.
Make a stiff paper pattern that locates on the remaining studs and mark where the tap drill hole you are about to drill should be located. Transfer the pattern to the bar stock and using a drill press drill holes to fit the bar over the studs and the tap drill hole.
Clamp the bar to the engine and drill the tap hole. The hole can then be enlarged to guide the tap while tapping the thread.
It there is a lot of material to remove from the engine block the initial size of the hole can be made to fit a smaller drill and the hole can be enlarged in steps. Two or more plates could be stacked to make the guide thicker for better drill bit guiding.
Hope this helps.
Update; I drilled and tapped the stud hole to 5/8" and installed an ezlok insert with a temporary stud (they sent me studs that were too short and keepers that were too big for this car, don't know what year they would fit, but certainly not this '26 that they were listed for!) The 5/8" insert appears to be holding as far as I can tell, but I will know more tomorrow when I get everything back together again and see if she runs differently. thank's for all of the help!
update, got everything back together and took her for a ride last night and although she starts right up and runs good on battery, she seems like she is "hesitating slightly when at top speed don't have the bike speedometer hooked back up yet so I am guessing about 35 MPH or less ( she used to do 40 max on mag) when I switch to mag she starts coughing,backfiring and eventually quits, the magpost is clean and now I guess it is time to check the output. I'll take her for another ride today to see if there are any other issues. The EZLOK insert seems to have worked for the manifold stud though and I don't see any leaks coming from the water jacket, so that is a good thing!
I forgot to add that When i move the spark advance down trying to find the sweet spot. before, moving the spark advance down past the halfway mark would tend to "smooth" the engine out but now it seems to act almost like the throttle, in that it seems to speed the engine up as opposed to "smoothing it out!
"Smoothing it out" makes the timing more accurate and probably cuts down on misfires. Both of these things will raise the engine speed.
I took her for a ride today and noticed that she still has a hesitation when opened up all the way and seems to buck slightly like a miss. top speed now is about 30 mph when it used to be about 40 before I started messing with it! I am going to pull the timer off tonight and see if I can spot anything amiss (no pun intended!) I still have to check the mag output too because I know that it is not working correctly! Also, I can actually "rev" the car up using the spark advance, it has never done that before!
Russ Potter, 217-759-7592 had a booth set up at Home Coming in Richman. He had new and rebuilt carbs there for sale. He rebuilt a 4 ball carb for me a few years ago. Outstanding work. If you need help or advice you might contact him.
Man after all those problems with that nh I'd toss it in the drawer and get another one. I bought an old nasty looking one on eBay and pulled the plugs and cleaned it out and I get free starts all the time and power up the ying yang. I'm no Stan Howe but it's not rocket science. Now I am going to bring the of stromberg to Stan cause he is the pro.
I just paid over 200 bucks plus core for this "professionally" rebuilt carb and It starts easier tahn it ever did and runs pretty good at idle and slow speeds. At this point, I don't think it's the carb and am leaning toward some type of mag and or timer/electrical problem!
Speaking of float needles I've HAD IT with the new steel needles.
Last week ordered a needle and seat for a JD G carburetor.
When the parts came it was with a steel needle........and it leaked like a sieve!
The old needle had a neoprene tip which I wound up using again and that was that.
I feel your pain, Craig!! What really gripes me is that the vendors all know about the lousy leaking NH and G needles and won't do anything about it, they just keep right on selling them. I've got a set up on my valve machine to wet grind them and now the damned drive on the Valve machine quit so it doesn't turn the tip. Gotta find another old Snap On valve machine or something and time to build another set up so I can grind them.
I have been taking the Holly G seats, reaming them to 5/16, sleeving them with 5/16 exterior, 1/4 interior and putting Viton tipped needles in them to get them to hold. Shouldn't have to do it.
the car seems to idle ok when on mag, but when I increase the speed, she begins coughing and sputtering and dies when on mag. she runs good on bat, but when opened up, she misses every so often causing her to buck a little when opened up and feels like something is holding her back from reaching top speed.
This thing has got so long I'm not going back and reading all of it. Have you made sure of sufficient fuel supply? Clean tank, clear screen, etc.? Running OK at idle but not at speed sure sounds like fuel starvation. No matter how good the carburetor is, it can't do its duty without enough gas.
Is there anything wrong with this flapper and timer as far as anyone can tell?
Steve, I will take another look at the fuel flow to the carb.
I just cleaned the timer and re in stalled it, I took the plugs out to see what they looked like and the rear two look normal, but the first two were "sooty" but those are always sooty whenever I pull them! When I went to reset the timing, I noticed that the coils are buzzing "intermittently" and at random (no particular rhythm to the buzzing), not steady as they usually do when I try to set the timing then back off till the buzzing stops, ie; when I move the timer clockwise until it just begins to buzz, the buzz is like a pulsating buzz, not a steady buzz, is this ok or do I have a coil problem? thank's
Check carefully for an intermittent short to ground in the primary wiring and terminals, especially intermittent contact between one or more of the timer terminals and nearby metal objects, like the timer rod or an oil pan bolt.
What does your wiring harness and bulkhead connector look like? Maybe it's time to replace them.
Just thought of another thing - the timer terminals should be insulated from the timer case, check to make sure that there isn't any intermittent contact between the metal threaded timer studs, their nuts, and connectors and the timer case.
(Message edited by cudaman on August 28, 2016)
Talk about feeling like an idiot, i didn't put the plugs back in yet and just noticed that one of the plug wires (#1) was touching the grounded horn causing the intermittent buzzing!!!!!!!! back to the drawing board!
Once I moved the wire, it began buzzing steadily!
back to square one! again!
A steadily buzzing coil indicates that the primary circuit for that coil is shorted to ground somewhere.
Don't let it buzz like that too long, the coil can overheat.