Methods of Oil flow to the front

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Methods of Oil flow to the front
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 09:16 am:

I'm considering bolt-on options to move more oil to the front of my pan. The magneto sensor oil line has been said to be iffy and needed modifications.

I found this link below to be a pretty good thread and also want to ask the group for any recent updates.

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/583606.html?1446830190


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 10:22 am:

The mag post type oilers of the past and present do work. But hogshead mounted outside fixture with scoop and big line to the front of the engine will move a vast more amount of oil.

Texas T Parts did a test, at fast idle, of the hogshead w/scoop vs. the mag post oiler. Note: tests done without magnets but 'oil slingers' on the flywheel. The performance was 15 times greater with the hogshead mount, moving 1 gallon (128 ounces) of oil per minute.

The mag post type moves 1 gallon (128) ounces in 15 minutes.

According to Ford testing, the Ford internal large size funnel scoop moved 16 oz. in approx. 2min at fast idle (over 500rpm) or 1 gallon of oil in 16 minutes.

So the simple mag post oiler will move about an equal amount oil as the std. Ford internal funnel line. The outside mounted hogshead fixtures with scoop are indeed superior to moving oil.

Using another oil line (inside, outside or where ever) is smart, as the single factory line can clog and timing gears without oil, and less oil in the inspection cover dips for the rods to sling up and around the crank and cylinder walls.





Easy mag post style


Mag post style flows oil


Hogshead scoop fitting with big line to crankcase up front really moves oil. So much, that sometimes #1 spark plug can get oily.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 02:50 pm:

Ford faithful. Google it,.....very good accessory IMO. Not hard to find, easy to install,....FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 02:55 pm:

A gallon per minute sounds like a huge amount, but I am reluctant to cut or drill my hogshead. I lack the engineering skill to cut such a structural part without risking its integrity.

I wonder if it is still possible to use a filter screen under the Hogshead cover I have seen with an oil line attached.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 02:57 pm:

Yes, the Ford Faithful looks like a great option.

I wonder if it would be effective to run the oil output line up to my generator oil breather inlet? That way I can avoid cutting or possibly damaging any original parts other than an oil cap.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 03:14 pm:

There was the Reliance brand of outside oiler that used an extension sleeve with a tube to direct the oil into the breather, the stock cap fit on top. Mag type oiler.

Likely easy to make a sleeve with tubing of correct diameter.

Picture below shows that brass sleeve fitting of the Reliance with a cap, normal cap shown in lower portion of the photo.




Reliance mag oiler

Then here is the Ford Faithful, using a new inspection cover, haven't tried this but seems it would make band adj. difficult.

When removing the cover with the plumbing on the cover , the copper piping would have to be bent and bent again each time. Plus a special fitting to the lower crankcase inspection cover.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 03:20 pm:

Dan,

I like that solution very much. Maybe a brass fitting could be removed each time inspection plate is opened instead of bending the tube?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 03:32 pm:

Chris

As for modifying the hogshead for the high volume oiler scoop, its easy to do, no engineering skills needed if you can drill a hole, enlarge it to an oval with a hacksaw and round file , and tap the tiny holes to secure the scoop. :-)


(Note: Did this fitting with hogshead on and loose to check placement, the field coil and trans was still in place, as they were coming out to get rebuilt anyway.) This was before the template was available.

Holes are drilled in the cast iron hogshead. Then connect the bores to make the oval hole. The hogshead must be off the crankcase for this mod. for a running engine.

If doing an early engine, without starter hogshead, with the thicker magnets, you have to set that 'template' supplied with the scoop type high volume kit to make sure the under scoop fitting clears the magnets and field coil.

Test fit.

Test fitting is recommend for any mods, or any reproduction parts, as you don't know what can happen if you don't :-(

Test fitting before using any running and moving parts or finish painting any fixed parts to be assembled later is the call of duty!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 03:39 pm:

Chris

To me, removing a hopefully sealed fitting for the plumbing on the inspection cover isn't my cup of tea.

Ford put single slot screws on that cover for a reason. Simple tool for a job that will be done over and over again.

The more you work on your Ford, you will enjoy easy to work on parts with access. The more 'accessories' and 'extras' in place is just more time and work when repairs or inspections are called for. :-)

That simple, no fuss, out of the way outside mag post oiler kit does the duty for safety oil supply.



Lots of old Ford motors had 'em!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Putnam, Bluffton, Ohio on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 04:13 pm:

Nice engine stand Dan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 04:16 pm:

Thanks Jack

But I covered over your paint choice to go with red for my garage. He He :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 06:53 pm:

Thanks Dan

Where does it put the oil up front? Directly on the outside if the crank?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 07:48 pm:

Is there a big advantage in having an exterior oiler?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 08:08 pm:

I am putting an engine back in this weekend. I will be using an internal accessory oil line, part number 3081 ACC in Lang's catalog. It was recommended to me by an engine builder. Hopefully it will work as well as he said it would. Between the original and the second one, should be lots of lube up front.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tim moore, "Island City" MI on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 08:20 pm:

Luke,

It is called "belt and suspenders", if one fails the other one is there. In a new motor that is maintained there will probably be no problem unless a cracked transmission drum shreds a band and plugs the internal oil line. On an old motor that hasn't had the internal oil line removed and cleaned gravity doesn't move oil well with years of sludge.

A "by-pass" system is never a bad idea to save expensive bearings and possibly a rod through the side of the block!

Tim Moore


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By WilliamThomas Forsythe on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 08:24 pm:

Hi all: I firmly believe in the benefit of adding a good outside oiler on every engine we rebuild. The piece we use on the hogs head is readily available from todays' vendors. However, I don't like the standard 90 degree brass fittings they provide, because the oil has to make a hard, restricted turn to go thru to the front end of the pan. In the photos you can see how I resolved this dilemma with great satisfaction. "An unrestricted flow is the result" and an easy task at that! Regards; TomOilside oiler-1outside oiler -2outside oiler -3


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 08:30 pm:

Chris

If you mean the high volume outside line from the hogshead scoop, the outlet is placed in the side of the crankcase. I placed it just behind #1 dip, so it floods the lower pan well.





Outlet is just above the front wood block the engine is resting on.



From the hogshead scoop, used hydraulic oil line rubber hose that resists any vibrations. Plus dual hose clamps over the barbed fittings, no risk of bursting and loss of all engine oil which would be a disaster. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 08:32 pm:

thank you very much Tim.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 09:30 pm:

I want to second Tim Moore's notion that having an outside oil line is like having a belt and suspenders. While it would seem that if a motor does have a large funnel internal oil line, an outside oil line would be redundant. However, circumstances can arise in which the internal oil line becomes blocked, in which case the outside oil line is all that is between you and an engine rebuild.

Let me tell you a story about a very good friend of mine. About 10 years ago we were "touring Colorado" in his 1925 Model T. His idea of "touring Colorado" was on the original mining roads. Today the are called "Jeep Trails", and they are marked "4 Wheel Drive High Clearance Vehicles Only". One out of two ain't bad with a Model T.

We were on a trail up to Corkscrew Pass near Red Mountain in the San Juan Mountains when he began having troubles with the engine over heating and losing power, Cork Screw requires all the power a Model T has to make it up to the top at 12,500 feet. After a great deal of pushing (on my part) and reving the engine on his part, we finally reached the summit. Before trying to pick our way down, my friend decided to "adjust the bands". By the time he had that done, night was falling and we decided to stay put for the night. We called it "The Cork Screw Pass Bed and Breakfast". Try sleeping in a 1925 Roadster some time. Still, it was a beautiful night with a million stars all around.

The next morning we started down the trail towards the "Million Dollar Highway". It didn't take long before we realized that the brake band was essentially gone. We had to stop twice to try and get just a little more out of the lining. I should add here that the car had the first set of Kevlar bands ever installed in a Model T.

We finally staggered into Ouray, Colorado, and in a quiet spot just behind Main Street, the brake band lining was changed. The Kevlar linings on the slow and reverse bands were still in pretty good shape, but the lining on brake band was being held in place by about 4 rivets. The others were gone. We changed the oil and pulled out several more rivets, but some we could not find.

We buttoned the transmission up, and everything seemed fine. So we headed off in a Northeast direction back towards our starting point on the Eastern Slope. About 20 miles down the road we were buzzing along at about 50 mph when suddenly we heard the engine knocking. We added oil, and that seemed to help some, but it was still knocking when we arrived at our hotel in Montrose.

So what's this got to do with outside oil lines, you ask. Well it turns out that for many years my friend had run a high volume outside oil line from the transmission cover to the left front side of the pan. Although he had stopped using the line, the fittings were still in place. A quick trip to a hardware store and we had what we needed to put the outside line back in operation.

That evening we took the lower cover off and found the rod Babbitt in bad shape. I spent the evening pulling each of the rod caps off, rescraping the rod bearings and tightening them back up. I don't know why I ended up being the guy under the car, but that is usually the way this works out. Thank heaven for four dip pans. When we had everything buttoned up again, we started the motor, and while it was quieter, there was still a knock in the main bearings. It was good enough, and we limped the 200 miles the rest of the way home.

When the engine was pulled from the car and disassembled we found one of the missing band rivets in the internal oil line's funnel, almost completely blocking the flow of oil to the front of the motor. We also found that the front and center main bearings were loose as well. The engine required a complete rebabbitt job.

We believe that had the outside oil line been in place when the rivet blocked the inside line, the engine bearings would not have suffered the damage from a lack of oil.

So yes, having both the internal and outside oil lines is a bit like having a belt and suspenders. Sometimes evil things happen in a Model T motor that reduces or blocks the internal oil line. In which case, the outside oil line is all that stands between you and an engine overhaul.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Friday, July 29, 2016 - 10:50 pm:

I seen one motor were the oil line attached to the bendix cover.
I use the mag post oiler setup myself and when that line sprung a leak in made one heck of a mess so it must work


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 12:12 am:

Thank you Trent for the information and the story. When I read the part about y'all staying the night under the stars I imagined a little bit of John Denver playing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 12:29 am:

A great lesson from an epic trip! Thank You for sharing it.
I'm going to order an external line.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 01:19 am:

I second Trent's comments. I am rebuilding my TT's original engine after blasting No.1 and
No.2 rod bearings after the internal oil funnel plugged up solid and run the front end dry. No
sexy mountain pass story .... just hauling a huge load of bricks up a mild grade and we went
into self-destruct mode. Will be putting an external oiler on the rebuilt engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By WilliamThomas Forsythe on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 07:48 pm:

Trent: We all here much appreciated your true story of the internal oil line plugged with a band rivet and how the external line enabled you to get home! We're always looking to improve the reliability of our beloved T's. IMO-The High Volume Outside Line is one of the best solutions. Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By HARRY A DAW Troy, Mo. on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 09:00 pm:

I have heard that some people bore out the holes where the internal oil line runs and put in a bigger tube. Plus use the outside oilers as well..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 02:08 am:

Dan Treace - In reviewing this whole thread, and especially your several posts, I'm still thinking "Ford Faithful" in combination with some of your other advice like hydraulic oil line rubber hose and barbed hose fittings with double clamps. Wouldn't that resolve your objection to "removing a hopefully sealed fitting for the plumbing on the inspection cover" issue? Just wondering your thoughts,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rolf Oehman on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 02:56 am:

The Ford faithful cover is very easy to remove. Just unscrew the brass fitting. Takes 30 seconds. No need bending the tube.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 03:10 am:

Rolf - Earlier in this thread, Dan mentioned his objection to having to deal with the copper tubing "plumbing" involved with the Ford Faithful, and I was just referring to his later post above where he mentioned rubber hose and barbed hose fittings that just seemed to me to be a way to resolve the plumbing issue. I really think that with a bit of planning and careful installation, the Ford Faithful is still a viable choice......FWIW,......harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 07:45 am:

Gentlemen, I replaced the original inside oil line with a large funnel oil line. I also installed the accessory internal oil lines that Don Lang sells. There are two of them. They bolt on the inside of the oil pan on the Passenger's side and the Driver's side. With both of these products you get 200% more oil up front.
I am still showing my 1911. The judges do not like the outside oil lines.
Respectfully submitted,
Pete Ratledge


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 08:02 am:

This video shows the supplementary inside oil lines, starting at about 6:30 in:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uW0u6aUjQBI&list=PLYG_lIhIwKyLG8WQm4tGmKK1nA0Yct p6G&index=39


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 08:45 am:

Mark, That was a neat video!!!!
Thank you


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 12:25 pm:

I show my TT every time I take it out. In the last two years I have heard not a single comment
from "the judges" regarding oil lines, dirt or grime, the load of wood or barrels in the back, or my
home made floor mat, wood bed stakes, non-original screws or bolts, or anything else. All I get
are smiles, waves, thumbs up, or people taking pictures of/with it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 04:12 pm:

Yes, that was a great video! Those internal oil lines can also be added while the engine is still in the car, so I'm starting with those.

Burger, unlike many other collectible cars, the patina is certainly part of our charm. My interior is not installed yet and people don't care. They wave and smile because it brightens their day to see us enjoying our hobby. Every drive is like a parade.

(Message edited by Laughary on July 31, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 05:06 pm:

I installed the two internal lines during the rebuild. Someone told me one side or the other works better but I figured any oil is better so I installed both along with a large funnel on the regular line. They were not difficult to put in and I have had no issues with them.

I have no idea as to how much oil they actually move.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Rick Goelz-Knoxville,TN on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 05:54 pm:

I installed one of the internal oil lines and had a new Scat crank installed, when I turned the motor over with the crank it the crankshaft hits the oil line, it is that close. It was fine with the original .

Rick


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 05:57 pm:

I have a SCAT in also. It took a little work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Compton on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 05:59 pm:

Installing the two internal oil lines (available from Langs) looks easy with the pan exposed, but how difficult is the installation with the engine in the car? Bruce


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve in Tennessee on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 06:00 pm:

Cannot offer any help there Bruce. Mine was exposed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 08:21 pm:

According to the instructions that came with mine, it looks fairly easy to do in the car and there are illustrations showing how to do it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 12:01 am:

Well, I couldn't resist the magneto solution when I saw the price is half of each internal funnel line and it seems likely to provide more volume.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 12:55 am:

Question; an outside oiler feeding to the timing cover bolt on the drivers side...
Does the front main get anything and how?
Does the gear train get anything or is the oil already too low in the crankcase when it goes in there? I can't seem to envision right now how far the crank gear is away from the pan bottom at that spot.
Serious questions.
I'm thinking for ME, I'd use what I have and modify the model A fill tube and oil cap (it's what I had on-hand at the time it fits OK and what I'll always use on my Crappy Little Lizzy) and feed the oil right over the alternator gear so it can share with the neighbors. Would the front main "get some" too?
I gotta go back to T school....... :-) Oh wait, the best resource on this planet is right here. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 01:01 am:

Good point

I would like to feed the oil right into the oil filler on my generator to avoid drilling holes in original parts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 01:44 am:

Chris, I've been stuck there for some time too. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

Bruce, I installed the oil lines with the engine in the car. Just put them in and make sure that the crank does not hit them. They have been in my 1911 for 20 years with no problems. I have driven my car in the mountains. The longest day on a tour that we drove was 240 miles. I still show the car at AACA meets and MTFCI meets.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bruce Compton on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 04:46 pm:

Thanks guys : I ordered a pair from Langs today and will pick them up in Stowe next weekend. Bruce


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