**1915-1922 Clutch Drive Plate Assembly**

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: **1915-1922 Clutch Drive Plate Assembly**
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 02:39 am:

This is the Clutch Drive Plate Assembly, I know I've labeled it as 1915-1922, but it could probably go as far as 1927...the changes were minute I think, but maybe not, I'll let you guys say yea or nay on that score.

I'm thinking that the cutoff date for the spring retainer clip is either 1914 or 1913 but This is the small clip that is an insert inside of the spring retaining cup. Which is not the one shown here, this is the later style. The problem is I'm not sure when Ford switched from the early style to the style we have now, if anybody knows for sure please let me know.

This one is the later one using the rear bushing of 1.125 ID rather than the earlier one .0965 (I think)...as far as I can tell they look a lot alike, with very subtle differences, not sure a drawing can show them though...but I'll try.

The transmission assembly has many different parts that I'm going to have to break out as separate subassemblies that will be shown on the main assembly as units. Since some of these parts are available from vendors they can't be clearly shown or seen (except as little tiny dots) unless I do their assemblies separately.

I do not know what the part number for the cotter pin is, I couldn't find them listed in the Ford parts list...if anybody know the size or part number, please let me know.



As always, please look it over and let me know if I've got it right or not...thanks. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 10:54 am:

Here is the breakdown on the cotter pins: I could find only one regular part number, and the rest are factory part numbers.
2565 is a 3/32X1/2, factory 66
421 3/32 X 1
753 3/32 X 3/4
88 3/32 X 5/8
757 3/32 X 7/8
I believe the 1" one would be correct, since it is the longest listed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 11:01 am:

In addition, I believe you have the years incorrect. Although the driving plate is correct as a replacement for the years you show, it will fit all years from 1910-1925. There was a significant change during 1926, when they modified this part to fit the new style NARROW brake drum with shoes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 12:58 pm:

IMPORTANT NOTE:

For the pre-1926 drive plates that correspond to the narrow brake drum, sometime during the production run there was a change where the three holes for the push ring were made smaller. Likewise, the pins on push ring also have a smaller diameter.

Therefore, if you put the revised drive plate I described above on an earlier transmission that has the push ring with the larger pins, you need to ream the three corresponding holes in the drive plate.

Conversely, you cannot use an earlier drive plate with a later push ring as the holes in the drive plate are too large for the push ring pins.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 07:41 pm:

What Erik says is correct. The modified style driving plate uses the '26 style push ring. Trying to find one is the hard part!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 07:46 pm:

So Larry, are you saying that the clutch spring support 3341 with the clutch spring thrust ring 3343 is from 1909-1910 (although it does show up in 1911 parts catalogs) and not 13 or 14? I really need that cut off date. The drive plate looks basically the same with minor differences, but it's the addition of that extra piece for pin 3342 that I'm interested it. Later years have that piece as part of clutch spring support 3341.

Also the bushing in the rear is of a smaller ID than the later years also.

As for the 26 modification for a new style narrow brake drum with shoes...I haven't seen anything on that one at all. Where did you find that one and does it look different in any way? Or is the modification just a lathe cut or milling off the backside a bit to fit a narrow drum? I know that the drive plate for the 1919-1921 or so fits like the lid on a cookie jar (a smaller inner diameter that fits inside of the brake drum), but in 23-25 they just bolt to the brake drum like a plate (no smaller inner diameter that fits inside of the brake drum) but these changes are impossible to show from a frontal view such as this...unless I include a cutaway side view to show the recessed step of the early version and the later with no step.

Erik, hmmm that would be hard to show also other than a side note. Also on some of the pre-26 cars the bolt hole arrangement is slightly inboard from where they are on others too...like for example, the 24 (possibly 23 also) drive plate will not fit the 22 and earlier transmission brake drums because the holes don't line up. I'm thinking this is due to areas of manufacture rather than any specific drawing change...but I could be wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 08:03 pm:

Erik, from what I've found the small hole drive plate 3321 and the small pin clutch push ring (pressure plate) 3336 can be found from 1909 clear through 1915...you know what this means right? Overlapping years.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 08:25 pm:

I didn't realize that the "revised" drive plate with the smaller holes that corresponds to the narrow brake drum was introduced for 1926. I thought the revised drive plate and push ring were put into production sometime earlier in the 1920s.

With that being said, as long as the corresponding revised parts numbers are shown for the correct years, perhaps the backwards compatibility issues that I posted may not be worth including in your drawings.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 08:32 pm:

Ok, I'm going with the idea that 1912 is the cut off date of this drive plate. There is also an overlapping drive plate with smaller holes for the clutch push plate 3336 with from what I can tell stem from 1909-1915, but it has other changes like adjustment screws in the clutch fingers 3337, whereas the 1909-1911's don't. Also the 1909-1915 version of this plate also has the smaller ID rear bushing 3327. If I'm wrong please tell me, I'm working on that drawing now.



I agree with you Larry, that the cotter pin FF# 421 is the correct length, the diameter is correct also. For those of you who do not know what "FF#" means I'm using it for "Ford Factory Number". I couldn't find a catalog part number for it either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Smith, Lomita, California on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 10:28 am:

Without doing a bunch of research, the new style NARROW brake drum was introduced in mid '26. There is reference to this in a '26 service bulletin. The driving plate bolt holes have to be elongated slightly for the existing driving plate to be used. Also, the clutch plates have to be the later style with the flat sides to fit the new style drum. If you have the early and late style narrow drum for comparison, you will note that the lugs have been relocated. The early style brake drum can't be modified to accept the lug shoes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 10:55 am:

Martin,

Forgive me if it's been mentioned, the plug, 3324B, appears in your depiction to be inserted from the square drive end inwards. I believe that it can only be inserted from the plate end and should perhaps be shown just ahead of the bushing, 3327B.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 01:41 am:

Jerry, from the Mike Bender video's I've seen it goes in through the square opening for the U Joint and is set against the bushing step about mid way. But turns it over and sets from the back side...but according to him it's installed through the front end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 01:47 am:

Both are right! If the bush is out and or through the square long ways and turn to seat it.


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