1915 Wood Firewall

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: 1915 Wood Firewall
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 01:57 pm:

I have a 1915 Touring that was assembled on September 22, 1915 and I need to replace the wooden firewall. I want get the original firewall plans from "The Henry Ford". To order the plans I need to supply them with a part number, description and date of the drawing. The description I can handle, however, how can I find the part number and drawing date? I know the "The Henry Ford" staff will do research but it's $30.00 to $35.00 per hour. Any ideas on locating the part number and drawing date? Thanks, Dave Tipton


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 02:45 pm:

Why not just buy a new one?
https://www.modeltford.com/item/3634E.aspx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 02:47 pm:

David,

The part number for the dash board is 3634. The factory number is 8754. The docents will need to know which revision of the firewall drawing you desire. This will depend on the date the car was assembled.

The dash board was revised several times during 1915 model year. I suggest that you contact John Regan. He has done a lot of research into this and can give you some pointers as to what you need. You will need to know what date your car was built, or decide what month you are trying to end up with before proceeding.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 03:20 pm:

Royce,

Thanks for the information. I'll give John a call on Monday.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 03:33 pm:

Mark,

I previously purchased a wood firewall from one of the vendors, however it just doesn't fit correctly. Not off that much and I'm using it on my car. Regardless which vendor the firewall comes from I believe they are made by the same vendor, a cabinet shop in Pennsylvania. I forget the exact name it was stamped into the firewall behind where the coil box mounts. Since I have access to CAD equipment and CNC Routers I'm going to try making one for myself. Regards, David Tipton.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 03:47 pm:

David,
You are so right, most of the supplier provided firewalls made are not correct! You are, I believe, based on your assembly date, looking for a 1916 model year firewall. John will know which revision you need, and might even know someone making a correct one--and if not, maybe you can make some extras--once you set it up, duplicates are very cost-effective. Eventually I will need one for my Dec '15 built '16 touring. (hint, hint! :-))
PS, if you want to see some really bad stuff, I looked at floorboards for my '25 at a major west coast Ford parts supplier near me. Yeach!! Even the counter guy thought they were bad!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 05:54 pm:

David,

I think Jon Anderson (RV's brother) is making these to the original Ford drawings. You might try contacting him as well. His work is first rate.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 06:48 pm:

And here is a prior post on Jon's phone #

R.V. Anderson on Thursday, February 19, 2015 - 11:15 am:
It's much easier to reach Jon at his cell number:
716-499-7255

He has no computer.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 07:29 pm:

Dan,
The list shows floorboards, does he make firewalls?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Justin H. - Western PA on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 08:07 pm:

David, did the name happen to be Kahle's that was stamped into your firewall?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 10:08 pm:

Justin:

I'm not sure of the name on the firewall, I'll check on Monday when I go into my shop. David Tipton


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robbie Price on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 12:39 am:

You are right Royce. Jon is supposed to start making firewalls. I am not sure if he has started yet but he should be pretty close.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ron Patterson-Nicholasville, Kentucky on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 07:57 am:

David
If you plan to order prints for the firewall from The Henry Ford talk to someone who understands the Ford's convention/system for tracking changes.
As Royce pointed out (and as with all Model T parts) many changes could have occurred for a single part during a Model year. These changes were documented in the "Record of Change" cards associated with a particular "factory number" part drawing.
You will save yourself a sack full of money and time by narrowing down the exact time frame for the part you are researching.
The recommendation talking to John Regan would be the best place to start this journey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Tipton on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 10:40 am:

Justin H.,
My firewall came from a cabinet company in Illinois, Syverson Cabinets. As for it not fitting correctly, I had to drill out 3 maybe 4 firewall holes to get the bolts through, they were miss aligned by maybe .0625. The firewall fits and looks nice in my car and you can't tell I drilled out the holes. Overall I'm happy with it. So ... was their CNC pattern incorrect or was it the fact that things have shifted, torqued, bent, etc. over the past 101 years in my 1915 T?

However, since I've been involved with CNC and Cad software since it came out and I still have access to the equipment I figure I'll give it a try.

Many thanks to everyone who offered direction and advice to my post it was all helpful.

David Tipton


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Menzies on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 02:53 am:

I don't know if Canadian 15 firewalls are different than the US models. My 15 had the original firewall in it when I recovered it from a mud filled ditch in Saskatchewan. It was made of 7 individual tongue and groove pieces. The base pieces are 9/16" thick and is skinned on both sides with 3/32" vaneer to bring it to a total thickness of 3/4" I reproduced mine using the original as a pattern. The reproduction models I have seen are 3/4" plywood, I don't think 3/4" plywood was available in 1915. When they are all assembled you can't tell. Maby the tongue and groove offered some movement.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 04:23 am:

There is a term for it (which escapes me at the moment). Yes, the original firewalls were multiple pieces grooved and glued together with veneer front and rear. (Basically T&G, but technically not T&G)
Earlier firewalls were a bit thicker (I think 3/4 inch). Early in 1915, Ford discovered that the new hood former/panel was difficult to install onto the new shaped firewall at the factory. They wound up cutting (mitering?) the edge on some firewalls to make them work. The final fix was to make the firewalls a bit thinner to fit the sheet metal rather than alter the sheet metal designs to fit the firewall. From early in 1915 on, the wooden firewalls were thinner (5/8 inch thick I think) until the steel firewall of about 1923. Someone better than I at "finding the facts" would have to verify or dispute the exact thicknesses or dates of changes.
Me, just trying to answer part of David M's question from memory.
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Nicholas Lingg - Tarboro, NC on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 05:21 am:

Lumber Core


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 08:24 am:

Actually the dash went from 3/4" to 11/16". It never went to 5/8" thick.

Here's a posting from John Regan in 2005 on the subject:

I have researched the wooden dash boards since I make them for show cars with all original details possible. Early 1915 dash used a wooden block to mount the coil box with. I have not been able to determine yet what that block was but I am wondering if it was a block glued to the dash and then the coil box fastened to it. The earliest 1915 dash was thicker with the 1/16" rabbet around the edge for the hood former to fit over. Later they simply made the whole dash 11/16" thick (actually .677/.697). The fact that you have the thicker dash with the thinner edge dates the dash very well. Below is the word for word translation of the change record for the period in question that I think may match your dash. This seems to be during the time frame that I think your found dash is from. T7462 is the factory number for the 1915 dash and 8/7/14 was its date of first drawing. Check the hole sizes for the mounting to see if they are 5/16 or 3/8. The 1/8" holes on front side are for the lower screws at the bottom of the hood former. I think the coil box block may be why you don't have any coil box mounting holes - don't know for sure.
RECORD OF CHANGE ENTRY:
8/7/14 T7462 1 req. Touring Car, Torpedo and Town Car 1915.
8/25/14 T7462 We have specified the diameter of holes for holding dash to body to be changed from 5/16 to 3/8, and that they be located 10-3/16 from the center of dash and 17 from bottom. Also called for two 1/8 holes 3/8 deep in front side of dash, located 10-7/8 from the center line of dash and 1-1/2 from bottom. Have also shown the T-7482 Coil Box Block (on dash) in place. (Mr. Galamb desires a sample of dash before proceeding with order.)
10/7/14 T7462 Changed distance between center line of dash and center line of hole for carburetor adjusting rod from 6-3/4 to 6-. Changed distance between bottom of dash and the center line of carburetor adjusting rod hole on rear side of dash from 16-3/8 (5/8?) to 16. Lowered the holes for coil box bolts and terminals , changing the distance between the bottom of dash and the holes for the two lower terminals on coil from 13-1/8 to 12-7/8. Removed the coil box blocks. Added grove for dash to body gasket at top of dash and holes for speedometer and horn bracket screws. Added holes for head lamp switch and for screws for attaching same to dash.
END OF RECORD OF CHANGE DATA
Enjoy

The repro dashes made by Syverson have never (from my experience) been made properly. There has always been a bit of work needed to fit a coil box in. Maybe they need to examine their templates? I've used a half dozen of them, most recently one for 1909. You can make it work and not look too bad if you use large washers to cover the slotted bolt holes where the coil box mounts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 08:26 am:

Please note the factory number is T7462 David!


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