Ford of Canada -- Slant Windshield introduction 1920 or 1921 model year?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Ford of Canada -- Slant Windshield introduction 1920 or 1921 model year?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 09:26 pm:

Steven Thum at http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/663294.html?1469924634 posted a link to a story by Sarah Laskow’s about auto camping (located at:
http://www.atlasobscura.com/articles/how-america-joined-its-two-great-loves-cars -and-the-outdoors . Please post comments about the camping story at Steven’s original posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/663294.html?1469924634 and comments about when Ford of Canada introduced the slant windshield on the tourings and roadsters here. )

The first photo in that story is from the Library of Congress and in Sarah Laskow’s article she had a link along with the following caption:
Camping at Lake Public, in Wyoming. (Photo: Library of Congress/LC-USZ62-41022)
http://www.loc.gov/pictures/item/2012645668/ But when I went to the Library of Congress they said they are down for maintenance until Mon Aug 1. Below is a low resolution copy of the touring in that first photo:



It appears to have a Peerless accessory radiator shell (see: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/86342.html?1238453766 ). It also appears to be a Canadian car. Note the lower slant windshield has pivots as well as the upper pane of the windshield. The USA cars only had the top part of the windshield that would pivot. And it also has the one man top with the oval windows. Note the oval rear windows were available as aftermarket accessories – but they were standard on the Canadian one man tops in the early 1920s. The absence of cowl lights would indicate a starter car.

I have seen different references to when Ford of Canada introduced the one-man top and slanted windshield. And the car in the photo clearly has both of those features. The Jan 1, 1925 Ford of Canada “Price List of Parts” has the slant windshield listed for 1920-1924 Canadian cars on page 47 part number 11000D (without the oil lamp brackets) shown below:



Herman L. Smith (R.I.P.) the Ford Historian of Canada for many many years in his article about Ford of Canada in the Sep – Oct 1967 “Antique Automobile” page 35 stated:

“1920—The round, top folding windshield was replaced with the slanting style, with both top and bottom sections adjustable. Due to loss of records it is not clear whether this was on the late 1920 models or the early 1921 models that came out in 1920.”

The Aug 1920 Ford of Canada, Overseas Owner’s and Operator’s Manual (from memory I believe that is ref MTFCI Digital Library) it still has the straight windshield illustrations.

Bill (Kevin) Mowle’s article “Only in Canada – EH?” published in the Sep-Oct 1988 “Vintage Ford” Bill says on page 23 – 24 “The touring top was the one-man style which
was introduced in 1920. The parts catalogs list three different types of bow socked assemblies for the 1920 to 1922 era, and identification is made difficult because the catalog numbers and pictures do not match.” But Bill does not clarify if he means calendar year or model year. I should drop him a note with the at question. [Also if anyone would like a copy of Bill’s article, “Only in Canada-Eh?” please drop me an e-mail and I will send it to you free of charge. The club allows us to do that to promote our hobby and club. You can click on my name and it brings up my profile and my e-mail address is the 3rd line down. Please put “Send Ford Canada article” or something with Ford in the subject and it will be read sooner.]

If anyone has additional information on when Ford of Canada introduced the one man top & slant windshield please let us know. Perhaps that is addressed in the MTFCI Judging Guidelines Seventh Edition. I plan to order an update when they become available (they either are just now available or will be soon. The update will include information about the Canadian cars.)

Note that same Jan 1, 1925 Ford of Canada Price List of Parts has the plain glass headlamp door with refractive lens listed for 1922-1924. It was 10 cents more than the same part with the plain lens. See 6495 – plain and 6594XH refractive lens in the price list of parts page 44 below:



Based on that single Canadian Price List of Parts, I would date the car in the photo as a 1920 to 1921 Canadian Model T Ford touring. But using a single source is often not as accurate as using multiple sources. So once again if anyone has additional information on when Ford of Canada introduced the one-man top and slant windshield, please let us know.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Saturday, July 30, 2016 - 11:21 pm:

Every 1920 and 1921 Canadian car I've seen so far, has the one man top, glass oval windows, slant windshield, one piece front spring mount and oval gas tank. All 1919s I've seen are the opposite. Of course there is always the mysterious changeover date and cars that are registered as the wrong year. When I go to the OCF, I plan to crawl around as many cars as possible to learn more. Trouble is, last time I went, I only saw one Canadian car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 07:34 am:

Dave,

Thanks. Please let us know if you find anything new when you go to the OCF.

Both of the cars in Bill Mowle's article were cars with a known history. But both of them where 1921s. If you or anyone else knows of a 1920 slant windshield Canadian car or a 1920 straight windshield Canadian car with a known history, please let me know.

Vic Patterson's 1920 Canadian touring has the slant windshield and when acquired did not have a top. But it did not have the top brackets on the front seat, so we know the body originally came with the one-man top also. From his posting on the thread at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/299440.html if you go way down to Monday, July 16, 2012 - 11:33 pm: he states: "My T is a 1920 Canadian Touring, Engine is C237648." And from the photos it is clear it is a slant windshield & one man top car. The engine number is listed under Feb 1920. Canada still put the engine number on the ID patent plate into the 1920s and the engine number and the ID patent plate number still agree (ref an e-mail Vic sent to me Fri, 31 Aug 2007 9:44 pm ).

Or a photo with a known date it was taken would be great etc.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 10:27 pm:

Hap, I was at a show today, there is a man there I met last year too. He has a Canadian Runabout. He thinks it's a 1919. I insist it's a 1920. Could be it's close to both. It has the drivers side door and metal top clamps so, Canadian for sure. It has an oval gas tank, one piece front spring shackle, stamped running board brackets yet, it has the old, straight up windshield. I don't have the engine number but, I recall from last year, it had a June 1920 date and the casting date matched too. If the car is correct, it could mean the slant windshield lagged behind the other 1920 features. Are the two windshield styles interchangeable from an installation standpoint? I don't know.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 07:07 am:

Dave,

Yes, the slant windshield and the 1915-1922 USA style (1915-1919ish) Canadian style straight windshield will bolt on any 1915-1925 style Model T touring or roadster.

But note, the bracket for the two man top to attached to the front seat is an item that is not as easily replaced. The upholstery has to be partially removed to do that.

To add to the confusion any 1915-1923 touring or roadster body can be fitted to any 1915-1923 chassis -- the body to frame mounts line up, the firewall (or in the case of the 1915-16 cars the firewall and hood former) fit the cowl correctly etc.

Folks also swapped car bodies back in the day (my Great Uncles traded their Model T bodies back in the late 20s or early 30s because they each wanted to keep their chassis but wanted the other body style).

Ford also used up the old parts and often had a period of overlap where one branch plant was still using the old style parts and the main plant was using the new style parts.

If we could obtain more information about the history of the cars that could be helpful also.

Again, thank you for the additional data.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 06:42 pm:

Ok Hap. I went to see a good friend of mine today. He has a rather original appearing '20 Canadian Touring Car and I photographed everything I could think of that mattered. This car has given us some of the answers we wanted too. It has a Mar 1920 casting date and a May 1920 engine number I think. It has a slant windshield and oval gas tank BUT, it still has forged running board brackets and the two piece front spring shackles. This was not the case on the June or July car I saw yesterday. Here are the pics.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 07:15 pm:

Note that this car still has it's gas tank cover and it has two filler holes. All ready for right hand drive models. And here is one more pic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 08:28 pm:

Dave,

Thank you so much for the many great photos. Please verify that owner believes the car came that way originally. I assume that is the case, but if you could ask him, then we would know what he believes. And if you stated that and I missed it, please forgive me. Also if he has any history on the car that would be even nicer.

The engine serial number C251880 is listed for May 1920. That may or may not have been the month the engine was placed into the car. I believe but I do not have the documentation to prove that the dates are for when the engine & transmission were assembled and not the date the car was assembled. Many of them would have been the same month – but those assembled at other locations the engines would have probably been shipped there. Ford of Canada had several assembly locations/branch plants.

If you have another chance to obtain some additional information of photos, would you please photograph the top rest brackets? I believe if you have the opportunity to look closely at them, you will likely find a number cast into them. And there is a right and a left one each with its number.

The Kelsey wheel lugs are the early style with the nut held captive by the lug. Not shown or I missed it, the backing plates on the rear axle should be plain and not have the reinforcements on the bottom side. While the USA rear axles added the reinforcement ribs the Canadian axles into the 1920s did not have them.

Again, thank you so much for all your help.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 09:37 pm:

The owner is very knowledgeable. He insists that the block is original. He knows the history from decades back but, no early history. It might have to wait until the weekend but, I will try and get the other photos you need. I didn't know about the backing plate difference so I will always look for that. I rarely encounter Model Ts around here but, when I do, they are almost always Canadian. Glad I could help and I will keep looking. You did see the photo with the casting date right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 10:13 pm:

Dave
Very timely pictures for me as I am attempting to build one of these from pieces. The body is about ready to assemble and I finally have the slant windshield. I have enough RHD parts that I may build it that way. Perhaps if I contact you you could email me the pictures for my reference
Thx
Les


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 10:14 pm:

I'm building a roadster


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 08:47 pm:

Les,

You probably have it, the article by Bill (Kevin) Mowle, "Only in Canada, Eh?" One was a touring and the other was a Roadster/Runabout. It is in the Sep-Oct 1988 "Vintage Ford." But if you or anyone else would like a free electronic copy, drop me a note with "Send 1921 Canadian Article" or something similar in the title and I'll forward you a copy. You can click on my name and it brings up my profile and my e-mail is the 3rd line down.

Dave,

No rush -- I've been working on gathering information for several years. And currently the health is doing good so I think I have several more years to work at it.

A posting about the rear backing plates remaining smooth on the Canadian cars into the 1920s is located at:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/121088.html

If you could also check and see if the car still has the ID Patent Plate. If it does, I think it will have the same engine number. Note that Vic's 1920 had the same engine number on the block and the ID Patent Plate that I believe was attached to the firewall.

And please take a look at the front seat frame and rear seat frame. I believe the front seat will be the metal style seat frame and the rear seat will still be the wooden seat frame.

And please check/photograph the running board support area. Does it have the extra holes for the other style running board brackets? In the USE there was some over lap when both styles were used and also where the frame was still stamped for both. Please see: and scroll down to the entry By Gary White - Brownsboro Texas on Thursday, March 24, 2011 - 10:52 pm: where he has a photo of the new style pressed steel running board brackets but you can see the holes in the frame for the older style. And the next photo shows the older style with the holes in the frame for the pressed steel style.

Again, thank you so much for the photos and help. And there is no rush -- just when you get a chance.

And would you please ask the owner if he would be willing to allow us to publish a few of the photos etc. (not for money -- but to repost on the forum and possibly to put an article together for the "Vintage Ford"?

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 09:09 pm:

Hap
Thank you. I will go and dig out that issue


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 10:14 pm:

Hap
Check out the smiling couple on page 18 of that issue!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 02:50 am:

Les, if you're building a 1920 Canadian RHD, then you may want to find the rare belt drive parts for the generator - or build it as a non electric :-)

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/150437.html?1291082462


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 06:37 am:

Les,

Great photo of you and Karen. I haven't had my first cup of caffeine yet so I was looking for a "smiling coupe" instead of a smiling couple"! Thank you both for your support to our hobby for so many year!


Roger,

I read the thread again, and at that time no one shared of someone in Canada with a Canadian RHD car with that set up. It was speculated that the part was used for export to countries that required RHD. But I did not see where that was not confirmed or corrected. Does anyone know of any 1920-21 Canadian RHD that was sold in Canada that had the belt driven generator on the left side of the engine? Ref the link Roger posted: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/150437.html?1291082462 .

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 10:38 am:

I doubt that a RHD '20-1 was ever sold in Canada. They stopped selling them in BC after 1917 I'm pretty sure.
I'll probably just go with one of the belt drive alternators. Space on the right side will be tight as I plan to use one of my Ross steering boxes (I've made 3 sets of internals). I have a busted and repaired cast iron "hogshead " that I'm thinking of adding a starter to. Got the brake lever too


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