Pan Straightening

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Pan Straightening
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Grabowski on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 03:47 pm:

Is there anybody in S.E. Michigan that has a pan fixture to check and possibly straighten my oil pan. I live in Algonac, MI.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Will Copeland - West Melbourne Florida on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 03:54 pm:

Don't know if this helps but Eric (Gator) Gould has a pan jig for models T's. He lives in Monroeville Al. He did my pan for me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 05:48 pm:

Closer to you,Jack Putnam(Blufton,Oh) or Ron's Machine Shop, (Shandon ,Oh) has one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 08:05 pm:

Clyde Menges in Fayetteville NC did mine for a 1915.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Barker - Dayton, OH on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 08:10 pm:

Joe Bell in Tiffin, Ohio has one also.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By joe bell on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 08:58 pm:

John, I have one and you are welcome to come use it in the eve or weekend, many have beat away on it, you are not going to hurt it! 419-618-1025


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Sunday, July 31, 2016 - 11:56 pm:

Holy cow
I want to see a picture of a pan straightening jig


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By William bender on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 12:35 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 01:23 am:

That is fantastic

So, its primary purpose is to flatten the gasket surface area?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 02:35 am:

Purpose is to prevent this
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/661905.html?1469938848

Dan

Oh, they are great for chopping wood on for the wood stove too. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 03:14 am:

Friend of mine has one that was used as a plant stand for decades! Of course, he is missing the end fixtures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 03:18 am:

Friend of mine has one that was used as a plant stand for decades! Of course, he is missing the end fixtures.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 03:26 am:

Mine was found being used as a drill press stand at a grain elevator in OK. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 07:13 am:

I know where one is and I would like to make an offer to buy it. What are they worth? I suspect that varies greatly depending on whether all of the attachments are present.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 07:36 am:

A bent oil pan caused crankshaft cracks?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 08:02 am:

Ok, I just watched the video and now I feel like the 1st year med student who thinks he has every disease they study in class.

How do I check my pan for alignment while it is in the car?

If it is bent, does the engine need to be removed to replace the pan? It seems to be an integral part of aligning the hogshead and the 4th main, right?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 08:29 am:

Chris, you can't do it in car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Laughary on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 08:41 am:

Thx Gary.

I'm adjusting rod caps this week and hoping that will solve the 11 mph vibration so I won't be forced to shift into high gear that early anymore.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 09:17 am:


I didn't ask Mike, but I suspect his jig may be home made.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 09:34 am:

There's one important thing that a typical pan jig won't enable you to check for.

Years ago I had a customer who was having trouble after installing his rewound field coil. With the coil installed, the engine would lock up when the pan bolts were tightened. The issue was that the pan was bent inward at the wishbone socket, probably from the front wheels hitting something immovable. The internal slope of the socket area of the pan would spring the coil against the flywheel magnets when the pan bolts were tightened. This was a '19 pan, when Ford was still using the 2-rivet socket. Likely this was a reason for going to the 4-rivet type shown in the above photo.

I've often thought that if I had one of these jigs, I'd try to add something to it to enable this check. Maybe the lower section of a broken field coil bolted to the jig in the proper position, insulated electrically from the jig so that an ohmmeter could be used to see if the field coil's touching the pan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R.V. Anderson on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 09:36 am:

I should add this his '19 pan had been straightened on an original jig and passed everything that the jig could check for.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Trent Boggess on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 10:25 am:

The pan straighten jig shown in Steve Jeff's pictures is not the same as the one Mike Bender is using in the YouTube on straightening the pan. In the video he is using a genuine KR Wilson pan straightening jig. This not to say that the shop made jig wouldn't do the job just as well.

The straightest pan I have ever worked with was a late 1911 one-piece pan, that was straightened by a master (as opposed to an amarture such as myself). When I set it my KR Wilson jig, the pan literally dropped onto the jig's deck, not touching a single pin. Every hole was perfectly aligned with the reference pins and pan arm holes. There was no pushing to get the pan rails down on the dick, and the rails were perfectly flat. It was perfect, and it showed me the kind of pan straightening work that could be done by someone who really knew what they were doing.

KR Wilson pan straightening jigs are very expensive to buy today. I have seen them going from between $2500 and $4000. If you can find one that someone is willing to part with.

Respectfully submitted,

Trent Boggess


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 11:03 am:

Chris Laughary,

Don't worry about it. If your engine has been together and running for many years, and a bent pan hasn't broken the crank yet, it's not likely to an issue with your car. If you ever happen to have the motor apart, check it then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 12:16 pm:

That Jerry is what's so nuts to me. Bent pan on an engine that's running fine and perhaps when you pull it down for a re-fit you find it's out of kilter. I'm thinking their so thin & flexible that you have one straightened, assemble your engine with no problems and a week of driving and it's out again. I just can't see it keeping it's shape for very long. Mike's video by the way is excellent. Can't believe how fiddely a job it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 12:18 pm:

I'm thinking, like water seeking it's own level, the pan will settle into whatever situation you put it in and keep going until disturbed.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 12:19 pm:

Those prices would be for a jig with all the alignment pieces; most ones you find today are "just" the cast bed, as they've been re-purposed into welding tables, drill press tables, plant stands, etc. A bare casting, with or without feet would go for MUCH less, especially if the seller has no idea what it is! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 12:46 pm:

My pan jig was a welding bench with a vise mounted. Table and legs only. I bought it on eBay. Seller had some idea what it was but several bidders sure did. I've never seen one for less than $2500 with or without the other pieces. If I did, I would buy it. I have the better part of twice that in mine, having driven almost 2000 miles to fetch it, then repair it, and make the alignment parts. When I got there the seller seemed embarrassed about the money paid for a chunk of iron, worried that it was not what I thought I was buying. His grandfather was a mechanic at the Lordsburg, N.M. Ford agency and drug it home when they quit seeing any model T's.
I don't like using heat to bend these pans. We have found when they cool, it will cause them to shrink lengthwise, effectively shortening them. You won't find this out until until you try to put the hogshead on a late engine and you can't slide it forward far enough to line up the ball cap gasket surfaces before the ears run into the block. For the same reason I don't use heat to dimple the pan for stroker cranks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 01:05 pm:

Just read your posts Charlie, and while what you say might be true, you are way better off starting with a straight pan than with a bent one!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Monday, August 01, 2016 - 01:55 pm:

Yeah, I said that Dave. probably necessary to re-build with a straight pan but I doubt it lasts long.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Travis E. Towle on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 12:28 am:

I really wish someone would make a few of these! I would be in for buying one.


Travis
Topeka, Kansas

785-408-3409


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert A Weitzel on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 01:15 am:

I seen one in Hershey For $1200. But shipping would have killed me


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Brown on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 08:14 pm:

Does anyone have a blueprint for a KR Wilson pan jig?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 08:34 pm:

Just remember, NO J. D's in the casting!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Brown on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 10:01 pm:

Herm, If you just gave me one of yours, that would solve the whole problem


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 10:15 pm:

A fellow down the road from here found one out in the Dakotas. The guy didn't know what it was but had used it like an anvil. I guess he didn't think it was worth much because he let it go for $50.00. The top needs to be touched up and he hasn't got any fixtures for it but at $50.00 he can afford to put a few dollars into it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Vaughn - Lincoln, NE on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 10:44 pm:

Something interesting that I have found; pans tend to be better after they are high pressure sandblasted. I have had pans that looked like they needed a lot of work when placed on the jig before sandblasting. After sandblasting they needed very little work. My theory is that the preening of the sand causes the metal to return to it original shape because the metal has a sort of memory.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Brown on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 11:00 pm:

Herm are you seeing this? Looks like $50 is the going price. I'll be over after work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 12:56 am:

Tisk, Tisk, Dan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 02:07 am:

Actually, I think my friend Lloyd bought his bare one for $50, was being used as a flower stand! And the owner sorta knew what it was.
Good Luck Dan!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 06:29 am:

One of the things that is hard to see on the "home made" jigs is the front motor mount straightening area. The original jigs had a hole that you pushed a rod through to ensure the motor mount was in line with the crank journals. Maybe they do but I can't see it. I found that my pan mount area was way off to the tune of about 3/4 of and inch to one side and to the bottom. Certainly that put stress on the crank and I didn't know it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 07:15 am:

With a few hundred pounds of foundry sand, and a pattern, everybody can have a pan jig.

Regards all,
Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Brown on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 09:55 am:

With a few hundred pounds of foundry sand, and a pattern, everybody can have a pan jig.

Everyone can have a rough casting. That's the easy part.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Garnet on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 10:11 am:

Yes, there would be machining involved. Milling machines overcome this problem.

Garnet


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 02:57 pm:

The homemade jig Mike is using, is in his shop in Tulsa. The original KR Wilson jig in the videos is at a fellow Tin Lizzie members shop in Arkansas, where the videos were made . I do know that the last one I know of selling was 4500.00 with the attachments. It was in California and delivered to Chickasha two years ago. I am building one for my shop. I have a piece of 2 inch thick steel plate Im having water jetted into the shape of the pan. I will set that on top of an extra set of KR Wilson legs from a old combination machine. The plate cost me 75.00 the water jet cutting will give me 2 plates. One for me and one to sell or trade. The shop cost for the cut is 280.00 for both. Then I will need to machine it flat. Any machine shop with a full size Bridgeport can do it. Then I have to drill 28 holes for the pins and fab up the locating pins for the front and rear fixtures as well as drill their holes. I can do all that on my 32 inch Bridgeport. I will probably have about 200.00 in my pan jig, but weeks of part time work... If I sell the extra plate for 200.00 then Ill have 0 dollars but lots of labor in it ... :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, August 05, 2016 - 03:37 pm:

And if you had a cnc machining center, Donnie, you could make many of them with one set-up!! Actually, Lloyd has one (or two) but I doubt I could convince him that there's a market to do this. Bummer. . . And he's got an original to reverse engineer. . .


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