Model T Coolant

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Model T Coolant
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Gillespie on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 11:50 am:

Does anyone have any experience with waterless coolants such as “Evans High performance Waterless Engine Coolant”? The company claims that you get 40% better heat transfer and less chance of boil over (Boils at 375 F compared to regular anti-freeze with water that boils at 225 F). Evans also claims less corrosion because you don't use any water in the system. The system operates at 3% or less of water.
Does anybody have any experience with this type of product? Does it do what they claim?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Eckensviller - Thunder Bay, ON on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 11:53 am:

I *think* it's come up that there's a warning on at least one brand of waterless coolant that it won't work in a thermo siphon system. Something to look into before moving ahead.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Gillespie on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 12:06 pm:

I looked all over the container and the literature sent and it did not say anything. It does say "vintage" cars. I got it from Lang's so I assume that it can be used in a T


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 12:29 pm:

A friend of mine tried the Evans coolant in his 1967 R code 427 Fairlane. We were at the drag strip in Milan, Michigan and his car was extremely hot under hood even though the temp guage said it was cold. The car was pinging badly and when he shut the key off it continued to run, it was "dieseling" because of severe hot spots in the combustion chambers. The upper radiator hose was cold, and you could put your finger in the coolant inside the radiator and it was barely warm to the touch.

Another participant came over with a infra red thermometer. We checked temperature on the intake manifold near the temperature sensor, which is all the way at the front of the engine. It was very cool, around 150 degrees. Then we measured the temperature of the cylinder head where the water passage is near the rear of the engine. It was over 250 degrees.

He drained the Evans coolant, installed water and the engine started cooling normally. From this experience I believe the Evans coolant does not transfer heat well. No way I would use it. Very expensive and doesn't work - a bad idea.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Gillespie on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 12:45 pm:

Thanks for your input Royce. The only time I'm having an issue now is when I shut the T down. When it is running the temp stays inside the "normal summer" on the motometer. Once the engine shuts down after a few minutes, I get boilover I know because without the engine running, I have no air flow through the radiator. The temp here has been in the low 90's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 01:04 pm:

You may have the radiator over filled. The coolant level needs to be about 2" below the Ford script.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 01:12 pm:

So, the Evans coolant can get to 375F before boiling.

Water can get to 212F before boiling.

Ask yourself this, do you want your engine to potentially run up to 375F or only get to 212F?

If you use Evans it's obviously because you're already boiling when using water. So you KNOW, with Evans, your engine temps will exceed 212. You might think you're just fine cause, hey, it's not boiling. But, that doesn't mean your motor isn't seething hot and destroying itself.

Bottom line, boiling is a good thing. It tells you you've got a problem that you can fix before wrecking your motor. It also means that, except for some hot spots maybe, your motor won't get over 212.

(BTW, when is say "water", I'm not advocating water only. I use Prestone & water.)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By G.R.Cheshire on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 01:27 pm:

Well stated Jerry! I would like to add that Evans and similar coolants are coming onto the market place BECAUSE the Government is mandating better fuel economy and the easiest way for vehicle manufacturers to meet the new standards is to design engines to run hotter with specialized lubricants designed to take the increased heat without breaking down. I *THINK* G.M. is testing an engine to operate normally at 295 f. that is very hot. "T" engines were not designed for the higher operating temps.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Gillespie on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 02:19 pm:

This is VERY good information Royce and Jerry. Jerry I had not thought about the boil over like that before and you make an excellent point. BTW I too do a 50/50 mixture with RO water and Prestone. I'm glad I asked before I did the Evans. If you look inside the radiator, there is a "V" and the level is up to there after it has cooled down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Tuesday, August 02, 2016 - 02:39 pm:

That sounds about right Kevin. Go drive it again and it should be in the same place from now on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 08:33 am:

Gentlemen, I have been running Evans coolant in my 1911 since 2000. I have not had any problems with it. When I tour ,I use a motor meter. The temperature goes up and down the way it's supposed to do.
My car has a completely stock engine and drive-train.
On MTFCI tour in Boon NC.,a few years ago,there were two hills almost 5 miles long. I had to use the low pedal all the way. The temperature worked like it should have. It went up and down. It even worked well on a tour in Utah. Some of the days were 185 miles with high altitude.The only thing I had to do was adjust the carburetor.
I fill it up to the V in the radiator. I change the Evans every three years.
On 7-11-2007, The Evans Company had a photo of my car on their web site.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 09:51 am:

Peter,

Did you have overheating problems before using Evans?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 10:21 am:

Yes Jerry, I would have to put in a gallon of water before noon every day on a tour. I flushed the block and radiator to no avail. I even bought a new round core radiator from Brass works. Some one told me about Evans. No problems since.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Sommers on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 10:35 am:

Peter,
Does your car have a water pump? I am asking because I am wondering about thermo-siphon as it relates to heat transfer.

Jay Leno talks about using this in his old cars, but doesn't mention his Model T, specifically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t7PykrgzWPQ

Thanks,
Mike


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 10:58 am:

No, Mike. I have never had or tried a water pump.
I still show my car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Corey Walker, Brownsboro TX on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 11:28 am:

The guy in Jay Leno's video says with the Evans you don't overheat, but from what I get out of it is you do overheat, it just doesn't boil out. I'll stick with water and ethylene glycol.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Gillespie on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 02:21 pm:

Peter how is it in regards to corrosion? Have you checked your system for corrosion. Have you had to replace your radiator since you started using the Evans?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Kossor - Kenilworth, NJ on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 03:01 pm:

Thanks Peter for sharing your experience with Evans coolant. Folks get mislead here all too often by participants spewing misinformation as gospel fact. This is a good example where a stuck thermostat or some other variable may have been the root cause for engine overheating and use of a perfectly good product gets forever branded as being a bad idea because of it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Walter Higgins on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 03:30 pm:

Evans wasn't able to build a large company around a product that doesn't work.

About a year ago I installed it in a two cylinder car that has a water pump but no fan. It has worked amazingly well and to my knowledge still is. Even if you're running a little hotter because you can't move, there's no benefit to using a coolant that is going to quit absorbing heat. All of us that have overheated at a stop light know that experience is no fun.

In another car of the same configuration it is running 50/50 and has trouble sitting and not moving for short periods of time (red lights, idling in driveway, slow moving while parking, etc) and also heat soaking when parked and boiling over. It's just the nature of the beast. I look forward to converting this car to Evans, too.

Other issues crop up from severe overheating that should be an indicator to shut down and investigate (the car mentioned above has not suffered ill effects from running a little hotter as far as I know, and it's going to do it no matter what you put in it because of its design). At least with the Evans you're still carrying away heat and not creating steam pockets. Just because water boils at 212 doesn't mean that's as hot as your engine is going to get. If that's your indicator and you're boiling, the coolant has already ceased doing its job of carrying away heat and the engine temperature is going to climb rapidly.

Anyone interested should call Evans for a better explanation but basically, as I recall from my chat with them last year, the differences in products (Heavy Duty, High Performance, ATV) has mostly to do with viscosity -- e.g. ATV is thinner for the smaller coolant passages in motorcycles and snowmobiles, Heavy Duty is for trucks, etc. On their site they don't even list the "classic car" version and I want to say they told me it's just High Performance with a different label for marketing purposes, and that High Performance is recommended for most common auto applications.

(Message edited by WMH on August 03, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gilbert V. I. Fitzhugh on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 03:37 pm:

Walter - Is the two-cylinder Tim Kelly's A/C?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Sommers on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 04:27 pm:

So...It seems to me, that unless someone has a visceral and factual reason not to use this product (other than cost or anecdotal hearsay), it should be considered. Everything points to be intuitive as to the fact that I can achieve better cooling, inhibit rust, and prevent thermo-barf by adopting an overall better product. We all have invested a part of our kid's inheritance in our addiction, so I want to keep that value protected.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Peter B. Ratledge on Wednesday, August 03, 2016 - 10:26 pm:

Gentlemen, I don't know where to start. I will start with Kevin. I bought a new radiator in 1996 or 1997. I can't remember the exact date. (2006 I started using Evans). The radiator started leaking at the passengers side at the seam in 2014. I put Bar's leak and a lot of other junk in trying to control the leak. I was advised not to repair it
because I drive the car a lot.
I sold the radiator to a friend of mine.
When I received the new radiator from Brass Works, I flushed the block. The only thing that came out was the residue from the stop leak stuff. My engine is a original 1911 closed valve
engine. There was no rust residue
Michael,
I looked Jay's video. Evan's has a few products. I use the middle one(NPG+).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Hughes, Raymond, NE on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 12:08 am:

Had to weigh in on this. I have used Evans coolant for several years. No water pump. It works fine for thermo-syphon. My car is not a trailer queen, either. I drive it a lot. Nebraska to California and back. Jeep roads in Colorado, numerous national and regional tours, etc. Never a problem.

No, it is not a cure all for overheating problems. But if your cooling system is in good condition it works great. If you are concerned about possible overheating then a moto-meter or other type of heat gauge would be a good idea, as it will not boil over.

Peter: NPG+ was the correct version for this, but it has been replaced with the high performance version.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 04:28 am:

I'm an Evans coolant user and agree with Peter & Steve....

When any coolant boils, it looses it's ability to transfer heat.... the Evans formula does not boil so it stays in contact with the engine metal to transfer heat... that's the big plus with Evans.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 07:10 am:

I take it Peter is actually still on the verge of overheating. New rad, flushed block and still overheating with anti freeze or water in the cooling system? Isn't that an indication that something else is going on? Like driving habits / spark lever position for instance ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 11:42 am:

What you say is true Bob, (except I would add to your statement, "looses it's ability to transfer ADDITIONAL heat"), but the radiator only has so much capacity to dissipate heat, regardless of the coolant used and how much heat energy is put through it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, August 04, 2016 - 02:46 pm:

The facts are the facts. Evans coolant is nearly 100% Propylene glycol. It simply does not transfer heat anywhere near as well as a 50/50 mix of ethylene glycol and water (EGW). Here's the science:


As per Evans own web site (in the chart above) there is a 24% difference in specific heat removal in a comparison between undiluted Evans NPG at 0psi and a 50/50 ethylene glycol mixture under pressure. The chart shows the % difference calculation for the .66 specific heat of Evans vs .82 for a traditional 50/50 mixture under pressure at 100C.

This chart is showing a pressurized system, which lowers the boiling point someehat in modern cars and trucks, so it is not precisely the numbers that you get unpressurized in your T. Still, the Evans coolant is very underwhelming in terms of heat removal, and the motometer temperature is way different than the temperature at the other end of the system where your engine is going to be well above 250 degrees F if the motometer is in the middle.

I don't use a 50/50 mix of EGW, because it is not that cold in the winter here in Texas, so I get an even better mount of heat transfer using 1 gallon of Prestone to 2 gallons of tap water. And I can trust what my Motometer says, it is showing within 5 degrees of the same temperature as the top of the cylinder head at the rear of the engine when hot.


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