What is the correct way to reline cotton lining on band? I've seen where you leave about 1/4" over hang on the ends, and I've seen it where the cotton is flush to the ends and there is extra material in the middle of the band.
The bands typically are long enough that you can leave the ¼" overhang and still have a hump that you flatten against the inside of the band. Rivet the two ends first, then put in the other rivets. The rivet teeth should be across the lining.
About 1/8 inch and work the "hump" until it is flat on the band. Make sure your bans are round. Some say to make a hole for the split rivets (with a drill or punch), some say pound them through. I pound them through and take a flat punch and make sure the tips of the rivet are a smig below the surface of the lining. I tighten a flat punch into the vise as a back-up tool. To pound the rivet through I cut a circle, the size of the transmission drum, from a 2" Oak plank, drape the band over it when it's in the vise and pound the rivet in. I hope this helps.
Steve beat me. You can't go wrong following what he is showing you. I just leave a little less of the lining hang over the end.
Here's the video version:
Good advice in instructions and video, one important point to be sure, is that the bands are round, without twist, and when relaxed, the band ears are approximately 4" apart.
With the narrow opening, you can be assured the band will fit snug and round, and the lining will grab all the way around, not on a higher spot to one side. That can happened if the bands are too wide to start with. Allows for easier adjustment and less grabbing or chatter.
Use a mandrel and with soft mallet, shape the bands round and to get the right amount of spread at the ears.
I always like to see how others do things. When I do bands I like to poke a hole thru the lining with a scratch awl so that none of the fibers are cut.
Then straighten out the rivet so it lays cross wise to the steel backing. And finally spread the rivet legs with a small ball peen hammer and set them with a punch.
I've done a number of band sets and the only trouble I ever had was with my very first attempt at relining. It was a lesson.
I kind of wonder whether the way Steve is setting the rivet is better. By that I mean with his method the rivet grabs the kevlar with some material between the legs, where as the way I have done this is more of a point grab. So many times I can learn when a novice asks a question, because they can see things from a different point of view. Mike
I don't care for the big square ended tool that is shown in the first series of pictures for spreading the rivet. I see 6 sharp edges that may have a tendency to cut into the fibers of the lining.
I rivet the bands a little different than posted. I use a old trans. drum as a mandrel and just drive the rivets thru the lining. When passing thru the band material the rivet will spread because of the taper inside the tabs, Once they hit the mandrel they continue to spread and curl back into the band. The rivets just need to hold the lining to the bands while assembly. Once in the car the rivets just keep the linings from slipping inside the metal and be spread enough to not fall out as the lining wears. Did many sets of bands and never a problem.
Adam, I don't have that special tool, so I use a spare crank pin (the one the ratchet grabs onto) between the two legs of the rivet. That seems to curl the legs nicely and even tucks the leg ends back into the lining. And always have the legs go across the band.
I bought a pair of the special rivet spreading pliers from one of the vendors. It wanted to push both legs of the rivet in the same direction instead of spreading them apart, so I found that I had to "start" the spread of the rivet legs by hand, then finish with the pliers. Also, the pliers didn't drive the rivet legs far enough over to really grip the band, so I finished them off with a ball peen hammer.
All in all, I could have done just as well without the special pliers.
If you make your own tool to spread the rivets it might be a good idea to dress the sharp edges and the would take away the possibility of cutting the new linings. Just my 2 cent's worth.
The way we line bands.
Adam, good point. I'm going to blunt those ridges before I use that tool again.
I always have done the band rivets as Mike Z shows. Works very well, the rivet tails are imbedded way deep in the band material when you are done.
There is no need to drill holes! The tangs on the rivets do it for you. Just knock the rivets through the lining into the end grain of a 2X4 or 1X4. It is soft enough to receive the rivet without distorting it.
Kohnke, That is interesting that you use two separate pieces of band fabric. Any particular reason for that?
Splitting the linings into two pieces is an old-time remedy (or preventative) for eliminating band chatter.
From an engineering standpoint; When you split the linings at the bottom each piece of lining now only has four rivets keeping it from shearing loose instead of 8. That's probably why Ford never did it.
1. The gap at the bottom of the band lets a lot more oil in.
2. The gap at the bottom lets the ban be more flexible, so the band will wear evenly, as the original way don't.
3. The ban material will never pull straight between rivets, and pull rivets out, like some times the originals do.
Been lining Model T bands like this, by the hundreds 52 years now. No Problems, and, with Benefits.
Band chatter comes from to light of oil, and the biggest is having drums that are wore with high and low spots, so the band can't grab evenly.
They grab and slip, that's chatter.
The same thing happens with front wheel disk brakes, high and low spots, grab and chatter.
From an engineering standpoint; When you split the linings at the bottom each piece of lining now only has four rivets keeping it from shearing loose instead of 8. That's probably why Ford never did it."END QUOTE"
I've done a few bands over the years. I just did a set last week. In the future, I will try Herm's technique.
Very informative post. Thanks to all that contributed. Especially Mike's video. Nothing like seeing it done correctly without any special equipment. Never did a set and often wondered how you get rid of the excess "bump" of material you're supposed to have. If I didn't know from reading and watching over the years I never would have done that. I guess the weave just compresses. OK, now tell me why it's done like that.
Herm, why do you use the Spray Kote on the ends of the band fabric? Is it to keep it from unraveling? Wouldn't you think that sealing the ends would prevent oil from entering the fabric from the end? Maybe it's not a problem, but I have not seen the ends unravel, although I don't have the experience you have. I may try this method, sans the sealer. Mike
They will unravel with out it.
They come with some stuff on them, but it is a poor job.
Spray Kote is just insulation paint.
I never noticed on the replacements that there was something on the ends. I suspect the sealer has to be flexible to that the band near the sealant will contact the drum. Neat idea. Thanks Mike
Could the ends be melted, the way nylon rope is done? Or is that not possible with Kevlar? I have new linings, and I will do it Herm's way when the cotton gives out.
Kevlar in flame, burns on its own, Scandi linings really burn due to petroleum tar additives in the cotton weave.
Flame won't melt the Kevlar weave together, the strands burn, but don't lay down.
Better to use Crazy Glue, or the insulated paint, Gyptol on the cut ends. Some brands of Kevlar are already sealed with Crazy Glue, some come with raw ends, you need to seal those.
Pre-sealed Kevlar compared with Scandi
Fantastic stuff guys!! Really helpful.
Last night, while reading from my Dyke's Automobile and gasoline engine encyclopedia, I came across this short paragraph about splitting the bands. Apparently in the Ford auto and driver somebody suggested that splitting the bands like this would eliminate band chatter.
Herm's been talking about that way for years, now there's a support piece to back his technique.