I'm currently building the engine for my '27 Lake Style Roadster which will feature one of our RAJO cylinder head kits. I'm calling it my mid-life crisis car.
The engine will be splash only and not drilled for pressure. Features include a SCAT oversized (1.590) crankshaft, SKAT rod with Babbitt, .280 lift camshaft, Dan McEachern timing gear, EGGE high domed pistons and all new transmission drums. All moving parts have been balanced, prior t assembly.
Here are a few photos for your viewing pleasure. I'll add more as I move forward on this project.
Need a "like" button!!!
I'm assuming there's a dip tray associated with the aluminum sump?
I see the sump appears to be a bit lower than the flywheel housing.
What sort of maximum RPM to you think you will achieve?
This is timely for me as I hope to build my BB Rajo this winter as I now have my 5 main aluminum block. Billet 4140 crank being made locally here.
Do you have pictures of the body/ chassis yet?
Best of luck
What are the plans for the rest of the car Mark?
The stock dip tray will remain below the pan spacer. A spacer was need due to the addition of the SKAT stroker crank. Three small holes were drilled between the dip areas to allow oil to flow slowly into the sump. The sump was added for looks; however, it will also allow for a bit more oil to be added. The added oil volume will assist in moving more heat away from the engine. Here are a few picture of the car as received pre-build.
I must admit your ride inspired this build. Plans are to run a LAYNE Warford and Ruckstell with a 12 tooth pinion and our new 40 tooth ring gear. A Lake Style header fabricated by Matt Legair at GEAR Drive and a Carter BB1. The frame will be lowered front and rear by four inches with the body moved back 2 1/4 inches on the frame to allow the head to be removed and to avoid damaging (denting in) the gas tank and firewall. Lincoln drums and hydraulic brakes all around. For safety, the front axle will be changed to the Model A style with the exception of the front spring. Model A style radius rods will be connected directly to the frame. Steering will be modified with a Vega gear box added. Since it is a '27 build, I figured I could add the later parts for safety and have is still viewed as an acceptable period improvement over the use of stock T parts.
Image of the engine with the SKAT rods installed. Also, another view of the engine pan showing the location of the outside oil line return (1/2"). The transmission cover has also been modified similar to the Texas T style oil plate attachment only bigger.
Boys and their toys, will this never end Fast Mark ? ;~)
Still considered Fast Frank,
Nope! The reason for building this car was to address my mid-life crisis needs, go really fast and have something more than our RAJO head to take to the Bakersfield swap meet as a demo. I'm sure many would rather see and hear it run.
RAJO Mark suits me.
Like! A lot
1.590" thick rod & main journals will make a difference in durability
Splash oil with plenty of oil will work fine up to 2000 rpm or so, and that should be enough for a road driven T with overdrive
I agree. I'm not a huge fan of an oil pressure system in a T as the transmission (and bands) share oil with the engine. One minor mishap in a check valve or line can result in a catastrophic failure of the very thin she'll bearings. I know some will argue this fact but, I believe in keeping it stupid simple.
Shell bearings. Stupid auto correct.
Great to see you've found a sensible hobby to satisfy that Mid Life Crisis thingie.
Mine occurred about 20 years ago, I went the Miata route. Took a 104 hp 4 cyl engine in that car and turned it into 317 rear wheel hp and upwards of 150 mph of pure mid life satisfaction. After 10 years of that car I morphed into Model T's, Can you say "Fast & Furious" to slow and satisfied.
I have several stock T's and I do enjoy life in the slow lane for sure; however, I wanted a T with a little more beast inside. I've always admired Clayton's ride and longed to build something similar. I just hope I don't kill myself in the process of enjoying the finished product. I plan on driving the snot out of it once it is done.
Being single DOES have its benefits!
I can't WAIT to see how this turns out Mark!
A '26-'27 full body fenderless roadster? Heck yes!
When I was building my car, I fantasized about doing exactly what your doing to my car. It will be cool to see it in person!
I tend to agree with you on the bearings. full pressure is good, but just one more thing to fail. as long as you keep enough oil in it....splash works just fine....and as you said, oil is gonna get in no matter what.
How are you gonna do the chassis/suspension? If you want to do something similar to mine, drop me a line anytime with questions. Always happy to help.
I opted to not Z the rear cross member as I did not want to modify the 26-27 cross member and push it up into the turtle deck / trunk. Putting the spring ahead of the rear axle was also problematic as the drive shaft would have require shortening or lengthening the frame. Instead, I reshaped the rear spring (what a pain in the ass) to get the four inch drop in the rear. I also incorporated the use of a four inch dropped Model A front axle. The four wheel hydraulic brake setup with the Lincoln drums should provide plenty of braking capability once adjusted properly. I also plan on using 6.0 x 21 tires for a larger footprint on the ground. I may take you up on your offer for help as the build continues. I have yet to begin work on the chassis with the exception of acquiring the parts and reshaping the rear spring.
Vega steering? As in Chevrolet Vega? There's nothing built before 1970 that would work?
Looks like an awesome start. Some guys have all the fun!
Mark - Agreed that shell bearings can turn ugly real quick if oil starved. However if one wants a pressure system, do you see a reason not to use babbitt bearings for both mains and rods?
Hello Mark I like Clayton's design too well I was inspired to start my own I am running a 4 valve RAJO in my
Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Hudson run splash oiling in all their straight 6 and 8 engines right up to the end including the Mexican road race cars in the 50's? GM ran splash up to 54 in every thing from the 196 in 29 to the 216's in 53.
I guess you could have the best of both worlds. Pressurized Babbitt bearings with splash saving the day in the event the pressurized system failed.
I tried reshaping the rear spring, and it works fine for 3" lowering, but more than that and you may have really limited spring travel until it contacts the rear axle tubes.. Since you plan to move the body back, the lowering method Clayton used that moves the axle to the rear has an esthetic benefit - the wheels fits better to the fender pressings in the turtle deck. Moving the body 2" makes it possible to use a '28/'29 Model A hood that is exactly 2" longer than the T hood.
I'm going that route with my roadster that has kind of stalled - I'm slowly building an engine with cheapie '28 Chevy head conversion for it..
I would have preferred to go with Les Shubert's reproduction Ross; however, I opted for the Vega out of necessity as parts are readily available and the price was right ($100). After admiring the work done by Jon Allen utilizing the same, I opted to go in this direction. Again, not period correct; however, I want to upgrade in the interest of overall safety.
I did not realize the Model A hood was longer. I may have to explore that some more. Since I'll only be using the top cover while the side remain open, I initially planed on having Tom (Rootlieb) fabricate a '27 hood by adding the extra length of 2 1/4".
You can put the spring ahead of the axle and not have to cut/shorten the drive shaft at all. I did basically this setup on my car, although I installed a Chicago OD in mine.
With the spring ahead, it will kick the axle back a bit lengthening your wheelbase. I chose to keep the setback and shift the body back on the frame to compensate. This subtly changes the profile just enough and helps with stability.
To keep the car a standard wheelbase....all that would be needed would be to rivet in a second rear crossmember ahead of the original. This cross member would hold the spring and place the axle under the original, uncut crossmember. I saw a 1920's sprint car done this way and really liked it.
The shackles would look like my car:
Yeilds a nice profile...
Feel free to drop me a line anytime Mark.
If you're moving the body back to make room for the RAJO to clear the firewall, you'll want to move the axle back to keep the wheels centered in the fender indent of the turtle deck.
I'm planning to do something similar when I build a 3-springer. I'll also use 28 Chevy steering box and linkages along with the Chevy spindles in a Ford axle.
That makes sense. I see you also reverted back to the early style spring hanger and turned it upside down. I have a spare earlier style rear cross member to use in the mock up. I'll give it a try. Thanks for the pics.
Nice job Glen. Now you've inspired me to build a speedster. Guess the wife will be mad through 2017.
Looks like a a nice car !!
I'd like to clarify one thing. I've now built 4 different pressurized "sort of stock" T engines. Two with A cranks and one with a drilled T crank (kind of like drilling a coat hanger). And one with a Crower T replacement crank. ALL of them run "poured and bored" babbit bearings!! Zero problems running 40 pounds oil pressure. No babbit erosion. No shims.
The 2 A crank engines run T transmissions. Oiled from the inside out. I drill the rear main to the end and drill about 3" into the transmission shaft and then a 1/16" hole in the side. Provides lots of oil to the transmissions bushings. Needle bearing triple gears. I them dump the relief oil on top of the bands. The whole combination works fine
Not suggesting, just clarifying the process
Fine looking car. I have a '21 roadster that might work. Then again a 26 coupe would be different!!
Ross steering box. Yeah I sure can't compete with a $100.00 Vega box!!!
Richard, I have nothing in Mark's project but an ear and some parts. Glen
A couple of pictures of how I oil a T transmission on a pressurized engine
What a great project! Many of us will be looking forward to the updates as you go along.
Hap l9l5 cut off
My wife likes my Speedster project, its my messy shop she complains about. It's going to be white...someday
William Bender, can you post a photo of your four valve head. ?? What kind of valve cover do you have. I have a four valve RAJO Ill be setting up this fall and winter work season. Glen I like the deep sump oil pan. I am planning on doing aprox the same thing. I have a Sherman deep sump and Im using a stock dip tray like you are. Ill also drill holes in between the dipper troughs but I am planning on adding 1/4 inch pipe nipples in the holes and allowing them to stick up 1/4 inch. Then also add a dam at the rear to match the 1/4 inch height of the nipples. That will in effect raise my oil level in the tray 1/4 inch. and oil will drain into the sump thru the 1/4 inch pipe nipples. Like yours my sump is mostly for looks but also to add extra oil. I feel like the oil draining down the pipe nipples will transfer quite a bit of oil thru the sump for cooling ... Ill also have a high volume outside oil line from Texas T parts. Nice looking project. It makes me want to start on mine again . Please keep the updates coming ...
Hello Donnie when I got the Head it did not have a cover or rocker arms and towers
The rockers Are from Chevrolet
William, thanks for the picture. There are not many 4 valves out there to see pictures of. Mine has the two separate rocker shafts. I may change mine out to the single shaft but then I can not use the neat separate rocker covers. Here is my 4 valve in "mock up" stage. Still about 3 months till I can have time to work on it again
I love a RAJO 4 valve head.
William and Donnie, Why not set your engines up with a full race cam (if you haven't already), Port the T block a hair and run this exhaust:
and an intake like this....
topped with two of these...
I bet it would be a MONSTER!
If I could get my hands on a RAJO F-Head I think I would give it a try.
For now, I'll try out my 3-Port Olds Head ;)
Clayton. My engine and speedster are more for looks than ""go fast". I like the 4 valve head because you do not need to cut the firewall or set the body back. It will go plenty fast enough for me with the Rajo, dual exhaust, cross drive magneto, and a Stromberg carb.
I gotcha You should just give me that RAJO then...I will "exercise" it well...
Clayton, It will get plenty of "exercise" but it will be more like a Sunday afternoon hike or stroll in the park, Instead of a "iron man" marathon ... Ill leave all the "iron man" events to you and Seth....
Interesting exhaust. Where can I buy one?
Snyder's offers them.
They are a great looking manifold, have plenty of volume and have a standard 3-both header flange...which means flanges and gaskets and off-the-shelf. I have soli copper Hooker gaskets in mine.
The only hurdle is the block mount flange...they are THICK! If I remember correctly, close to 1". That pushes the manifold away from the block and the pipe flange out side the frame. To compensate, we had a local machine shop shave 1/2" off the gasket surface...and a small 1/16" or some relief in the frame rail.
We also had to cut some adapters to bolt under the studs to adapt the shaved exhaust and uncut intake.
Clayton, I'm your Huckleberry. That's just my game.
I went with the pair of Zenith S4BFs because they're gravity fed and I haven't seen anyone running a pair of them before. I have dual exhaust. Honestly I'm not sure whether my current dual exhaust or that manifold you posted flow better - just because the big one has to have a pretty serious bend in order to get it moving backwards after going straight down. I'm sure that intake and a pair of those carbs would probably run a bit quicker than my current setup.
I've got a Stipe 280 cam right now but would love to try a full race cam. Right now Eliza will do 65 mph easy as pie at about 1/4 or 1/3 throttle in Warford Overdrive. Once I get some friction shocks and pan hard bars I might see how fast she will really go. I would LOVE to ride around with some other speedsters and have some gentlemanly "races".
Sorry for the thread drift Mark.
I like your build a lot. Clayton's car is iconic and worthy inspiration. I especially like that power plant you're building. BUT! You need some more exotic carburetion. Feed that beast with a pair of Winfield Vs, or maybe 3 of Stan's OFs! Or 2 U&Js might be wicked. That's just me though.
Need a Like button, Seth!
2 U & J's would liven that up!
Maybe I'll shop Stan for a couple U & J carburetors. Shoot me some numbers Stan!
Now THAT is what I'm talking about! The bend in my pipe really isn't that drastic to obstruct flow at all and the internal size of my manifold is considerably larger then a T manifold. I'm also running a larger pipe (2" - 2.25").
Mine can pull 65 all day too...and once I get the ignition advance curve tweaked, I suspect 80-85 would be obtainable.
Anyway, sorry for the thread drift Mark. I think some wicked carburation would really make it go and look good.
If it was hot enough a motor...I wonder if you could run triples?
I know 3 or 4 carbs would look really nice. My old T would do 100 mph with a single 94. Just saying
Now port EFI!!!
Mark, I have a short block with B crank and egge popups I want to put my new Rajo head on but I am concerned with piston to valve clearance. Haven't been able to check since the head is on another motor in my speedster. Have you had a chance to check that yet?
I have domed pistons in my 4 valve and there aren't any clearance issues.
The head should have plenty of clearance for use with the Egge high domes pistons. When we designed the head, we incorporated the use of the modern 14mm plugs for this purpose. You should be able to run a .300 lift cam with absolutely no interference issues.
Mark, this is my late life crisis.
The Rajo rocker arms give you a multiplied lift advantage so don't get too much lift by using a big cam. If you want to add lift and dwell and perhaps overlap, simply shorten the rocker arms. Also about 60 pound springs are the best way to go. The Chris Egsgaard Rajo we have, had double springs and put too much of a load on the cam. But Chris was only running for 8 or 9 seconds under load on Shell Hill so it was no biggy but we will run on the street. Note how tall those kicked pistons are.
Also, We purchased special Ross pistons for higher compression and had them machined. They must be ramped in order for the fuel mixture to get to the plugs so they must also be castled in order to make more compression to account for the ramping. The spark plugs on a BBR head are actually too close to the deck thus making the ramping and castellation necessary.
The pistons with the tall slugs before machining. Note the Miller tubular rods.
Good looking engine.
Tim . . . . . it's only money :~)
Any updates Mark? Some of us are dying out here....
Mark - This is a little late, but in reviewing this interesting thread, especially your fourth photo that shows the flywheel with four oil slingers mounted, a "thought" occurred to me:
To mount the four oil slingers, you used a hex head cap screw on one end of each slinger, and a socket head cap screw on the other end. I wondered why not ALL hex head cap screws, and also, I was thinking that if a small hole was drilled in the oil slinger adjacent to the heads of the cap screws, and if the cap screws had a hole drilled thru' the head (like flywheel bolts) the cap screws could easily be safety wired with the wire thru' the cap screw heads and slingers,....an easy to install safety device. All eight safety wires cut same length of course so as not to disturb flywheel balance.
Would that make sense? Again,....just a thought,......FWIW,.....harold
O.K.,....one more thing and then I'll shut up,.....why do the four oil slingers appear to be unequal in length, or is it just the camera angle that makes them look unequal,...???
That's a good idea. All bolts were installed with lock tight. All oil flappers are exactly the same length.
I agree. if you can Safety wire them too, its a good idea.
I agree safety wire it cause heat loosen thread locker
So are you gonna get two U&Js from Stan?
Loctite specs Medium Blue and Green to 300F
and Blue & Red Paste to 650F
The later flywheel magnet bolts are not safety wired and I have never seen one come loose. Since I have yet to install the pan, I may drill the bolts and add the wire just as insurance anyways.