Noise from back wheel

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Noise from back wheel
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derrick Pang on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 04:38 am:

I've been driving my T around for about a month now and there is a loud chirping sound that comes from the back right wheel. We suspected that it was loose spokes that caused this noise, but even after attempting to tighten the tendons, the same sound still occurs. Its like a loud screeching/chirping/nails on a chalkboard sound. I'm starting to wonder if it's not the spokes but perhaps something else in the wheel? Please let me know your thoughts before I go out and buy new spokes. Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 05:19 am:

What type of wheel? If it's an early 20's 30x3.5" demountable rim type wheel there might be a mismatch between rim and wheel (if from different manufacturers) that isn't good to keep on running with?

Another option is a loose brake shoe spring inside the emergency brake that makes a noise?

(Message edited by Roger K on August 12, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By R. S. Cruickshank on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 05:38 am:

Another thought would be that the wheel is too far in on the axle and rubbing on the brake shoe. Many correct this with axle shims. Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 05:40 am:

Sounds like you might have a brake shoe which is scraping somewhere. If you pull the back wheel it should reveal the problem. Often what is needed is a shim between the axle taper and hub so the wheel does not go so far onto the axle.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Hatch on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 06:12 am:

Or it could be a axle shaft that is about to break!!! Pull the wheel and look at it. Dan


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derrick Pang on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 06:53 am:

Yes it is 30x3.5. I didn't think to look into the break shoes. I will take a look at it soon.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 08:48 am:

I had one of the brake shoe springs fall apart. Then the shoes were constantly rubbing the drum, and it was going to ruin a few parts had I continued driving that way. Same sort of noise. I would not drive any more until you locate the problem and correct it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 09:31 am:

Have you tried running the car without a back wheel to see if that helps ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Coiro on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 09:45 am:

Is does sound like it might be a brake shoe noise. _Jack the rear of the car, spin the rear wheels with your ear next to the hub and you'll be better able to determine whether it is a scraping, metallic sound. _If could be all you'll need is one or two axle-shims to get clearance (Lang's carries them), but shims can be a pain to install, particularly if you have Rocky Mountain Brakes.



_To hold things in place while re-mounting the wheel to the axle, I use a spray can of artist's adhesive. _A spritz of that on the inside of the shim does wonders to hold it in place while you're maneuvering the Rocky Mountain brake drum back into the contraction band.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 10:09 am:

Derrick, when you guys were working on the car did you ever open up the rear axle? Whenever I hear of some problem with a right rear wheel, I think of this: http://dauntlessgeezer.com/DG79.html.

On the other hand, if all you need is a shim you can cut one out of an old can (steel, not aluminum).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Brian Mettling - Dayton OH on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 11:18 am:

could be the axle thrust washers are no longer there, and it causes the axle shafts to move inward, bringing the brake hub bolts in contact with the perch nut or brake shoe springs. It was doing that with mine until I rebuild the rear axle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derrick Pang on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 12:41 pm:

We had actually put a new washer, new shoes, new bearing and new axel sleeve. Don't remember anything about a shim. But when I move the wheel after jacking it up, all I hear is the springs move. It's only when driving and making turns when the chirping gets really loud.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 01:35 pm:

Just turn up the radio and you won't hear it any more. :-):-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 02:26 pm:

George and I both suspected that his thrust washers were old Ford Babbitt washers and were perhaps breaking up.

His break shoes are new, we replaced those and the springs as well when we got his emergency break working...they didn't work before because they were broken.

But I suspect it's a combination of things...the wheels definitely need respoking for one thing...some of the tennons are just plain dry rotted,to where mickey mousing them as we did isn't going to work for long, and I've told Derrick this already.
The other part of it is the Rear Axle. The outer bearing on the right side slips way too far into the housing (about a quarter of an inch) so that the felt and axle washer (that is what Derrick is referring to when he says we replaced the washers)isn't backing up to the bearing at all...my thought is that the bearing is traveling back and forth within the housing along the axle shaft. Probably we could take that side apart from the outside and fish the old seal out and install one of those new neoprene seals that Langs is selling...wont be easy on the car as it is, but I think it is possible.

You'll need to study this Derrick just so you get familiar with what's going on inside your rear axle...if push does come down to shove, we'll have to pull your rear axle and take a peek inside...probably replace a few things and set it all back up like its supposed to be...which means putting your car up on blocks and getting a few tools.
Or...Derrick is fortunate in one regard...he's got a spare rear axle...we can rebuild that one and then swap it out with the one on the car now...but one way or the other, I foresee rear axle rebuilding and pressing some spokes in the future. :-)



And this one too.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 03:02 pm:

Rebuilding the spare rear axle sounds like the ticket to me. If nothing else, it will be a great learning experience (assuming Derrick's budget can handle it!) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derrick Pang on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 04:28 pm:

Ok so we found the problem. Seems simple enough but we never know with Ts. As I took off the hub and wheel, I saw that there was metal dust all over the shoes, spring and cap. It was obvious that something has been hitting in there. Dave chaffin pointed out that the 6 nuts inside the hub were hitting the main nut right next to the shoes. This was causing all 6 nuts to grind and shear thus making the sound. We hope this is the problem so we can just put a shim in it and give it some clearance. If all else fails, we'll have to go into the rear axle and see if there is an issue with bearings and thrust washer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 04:52 pm:

No, Derrick. Hub nuts hitting the brake nut is the symptom, not the disease. Look again at the page I posted. That symptom, and the fact that it's on the right side, tell me that it would be smart to look inside that rear axle. I expect you'll find that it's time to fix or switch it. But if you switch it, do you know what's inside the other one?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 04:54 pm:

Glad you found the cause. If I recall, that brake shoe retaining bolt has a special thin head. Best to check and correct both sides while you're at it.

Regarding the attached picture, maybe it's superstition on my part, but I turn the brake springs around so that the hook side faces out and the ends of the spring are sandwiched between the brake shoe and brake backing plate.

pic


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 05:03 pm:

I agree with Steve, it's time to pull and rebuild the rear axle before you end up with no brakes.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 05:52 pm:

Derrick believes that the wheel is running up too far on the axle taper...I'm not certain that's the cause, but it's his car and I know he's on a really tight budget.

But Steve's right Derrick, it's better to be sure, by fixing it now than sorry later when you're rear axle lets go or something worse happens whilst you're out driving along with your fiancée.

Also you really should give some very serious thought to re-spoking those two back wheels...I know it's expensive and I might be able to help a bit there, but what could happen if either of those two lets go is a hell of a lot more expensive in terms of more than just money.
You want to drive this car away from the church after your wedding don't you? Lets make sure it will be a safe trip for you and her, ok? Which means we fix the bloody rear axle and re-spoke those wheels, you've got a whole year in which to get this done, so plan on it now to be safe tomorrow. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 11:11 pm:

Spoke to Derrick on the phone this afternoon, morning his time. He pulled the wheel and found all kinds of shavings from the hub bolts . He'll be getting some hub shims. He pulled the wheel off and found the problem all by his little ol' self. I'm so proud. Keep the faith young d'Artagnan.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Friday, August 12, 2016 - 11:29 pm:

The Three Old MusckeTiers are happy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Martin Vowell, Sylmar, CA on Saturday, August 13, 2016 - 01:50 am:

George, but he didn't find the cause, he found a symptom. There's more going here than just a bit of metal dust on the brake linings. When you can pull on the axle and it moves in and out even just a little bit, there's something wrong...and I'd bet you dollars to doughnuts it's got something to do with those bloody thrust washers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Saturday, August 13, 2016 - 08:13 am:

I'm no expert here by any means, but one thing I've learned about these old cars is unless you're absolutely positive there's bronze thrust washers in the differential, it's best to take an afternoon and open it up. If they're there, you shuld be good to just slap it back together (assuming everything else seems to be okay) and move on to the next possible problem, like a worn hub/axle taper indicating the need for at least a shim to move the wheel "out" a bit to stop the bolts from hitting the shoes and squeaking. Just my thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, August 13, 2016 - 09:38 am:

Open it up. I could be barking up the wrong tree, but I'm probably not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derrick Pang on Saturday, August 13, 2016 - 11:08 am:

Ok let's open her up.


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