Engine number 6,6XX,XXX is Oct 1922. Is this plaque original, or did someone find the plaque then add the numbers to dress up this T? If real shouldn't this car show up on Benson's ledgers under this dealer? Does this dealer still exist?
(Message edited by m2m on August 12, 2016)
Oh, and by the way; I've just listed this car on Ebay with bidding starting at $50K. I believe JFK sold this car new, his first new car sale.
Lots of luck,Constantine selling it. What yr is it.
How do u print the color in your messages?
Richard, click on "Formatting" at the top of the page and it will show you how.
The Accounts Receivables ledgers at the Benson Ford end at December 31, 1914. This car was built years later. There are no sales records after December 1914 anywhere as far as we know.
As soon as HF tossed Leland and his son into the street. Talk about carrying a grudge!
Pretty sure the answer is 1924 on the initial Lincoln sales question.
February 4, 1922. http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/ford-buys-lincoln
February 4, 1922: Ford buys Lincoln Motor Company for $8 million. Henry Ford (standing left) and his son, Edsel B. Ford (seated left), purchase the Lincoln Motor Company for $8 million from Henry Leland (standing right) and his son Wilfred Leland (seated right).
So it seem car 6,6XX,XXX was made during Ford ownership of Lincoln which means the brass plaque seems to be period correct for the car (if this T really is a late 1922 car).
So the question now is: Was the car number added to the brass dealer plaque by the dealer or by the person who restored the car? Did dealer plaques normally show the car number?
Royce, any idea if the Benson's brass era Accounts Receivables ledgers featured any foreign dealers? I'm thinking of the Ford dealer in Imperial Russia which was supplied directly from Detroit. The dealer's surname name is known which may help. A Russian professor did research on the topic at the Benson in the 1990s but I believe it was before the ledgers turned up.
I suspect that is one of those things that could go either way? But of the dozen or so dealer's plates I have seen, none of them had the car's serial number on it. One other clue could be whether the numbers were stamped into the plate (leaves indentations in the plate) or if they were cut into the plate by an engraver, like a trophy shop. Many people, not having ready access to a proper number stamp set, go with what they are familiar with, the place they get their golf trophies from.
John Fitzgerald Kennedy was born in 1917, and would have been about six years old when that car was new. (?)
Drive carefully, and enjoy, W2
Wayne, are you trying to ruin my Ebay auction??? Heh, heh! Anyway, apart from being too young, JFK grew up in Massachusetts not West VA.
Just wondering, did Ts in 1922 have a Ford plaque that showed the car number like they did in the brass era?
I agree with Wayne. It looks like an engraving. Probably done anytime within the last 30 years.
I doubt the dealer would have included the number. If they did, I think it would have been stamped, not engraved.
FWIW, that number appears to be machine engraved rather than by hand. I have no idea when this type of engraving device was introduced but it would not be during the twenties.
Allan from down under.
It's not engraved...it's reversed die stamped to look embossed. Notice the clean sharp lines around each letter? That's a positive and negative die process, the only reason anybody would go through such expense to make two plate dies like this, would be for use on a lot of cars...not just one. More than likely that plaque is legit. Stamping dies like that would typically run for 100 to 150 stampings. But on soft material like brass could run for 200 or so before needing to be replaced. The only part of this plate that is engraved is the serial number at the bottom and it's panagraph engraving.
I thought it was understood that we were referring to the serial number being engraved, not the plate itself.
I still am not getting the relationship with JFK???
I did not see any records of foreign dealers per se. There were records showing Fords shipped to a New York dealer for export. I did not take notes of that dealer's name. It did say where they were going, unfortunately it has been several years and I do not remember much else.
Ford put a "car" number on a brass plate from before the model T until early in 1915. The number started out supposedly matching the engine number (mostly), but started lagging behind due to engines alone being sold by Ford with serial numbers. The "car" number started falling behind, and became a couple/few thousand off by late '14. Because it began causing confusion, and MOST jurisdictions that registered cars preferred the engine number rather than the car number, and because Henry could save a few pennies by not stamping the separate number, they discontinued putting that extra number on the cars (as I said) early '15.
For 1926 (actually about December '25), Ford again began putting a second serial number on the model Ts, this time stamped on the frame rail under the front floorboards. This time, they kept the numbers matching (a popular catch phrase these days). The probable reason for this, was simply changing times. Although it had only been barely more than ten years since Ford stopped second serial numbers, other manufacturers had begun using both engine numbers and chassis numbers. As automobiles became more common, and lasted longer, engines started being replaced much more often. This was creating problems for licensing and registration jurisdictions. More and more, such jurisdictions began to favor chassis numbers rather than engine numbers.
By the mid 1920s, the USA state California was encouraging car owners to have the serial number moved to the frame when an engine was replaced, by offering a lower fee for having the car switched to a chassis number than for changing the serial number on the registration (a requirement if the engine was replaced).
Drive carefully, and enjoy! W2
That chair in the photo with Edsel and Mr. Ford and the Lelands, with the state seal of Michigan on it, is to die for.
Not pertinent to the subject, but an observation of mine.
Mike, the JFK part of this was a joke, to justify the $50K minimum opening bid for the roadster pictured.
Wayne, thanks for the explanation.
Royce, that's very interesting. So perhaps some, if not all, foreign Ford dealerships purchased their cars from the New York dealer rather than from Ford HQ? Do people believe the pre-1914 Accounts Receivables Ledgers the Benson has is the complete set or are books missing?
Richard and Dick, I use HTML code to produce the colour of my font (an ex-hacker I know showed me how); the way the "Formatting" section suggests doing it cannot produce a wide range or colours.
Gary Blake...Thanks for confirming that!
I guess I'm just a bit more than naive.
Last I heard, JFK was dead. You won't be getting no relationship with him now !