Rims and felloes.

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration
Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Rims and felloes.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 03:23 pm:

I took the rims off today to check on the spoke tenons and to see what kind of rims and felloes I have. turns out, I have multiple different kinds of rims and felloes. I took some pictures to see if y'all could help me identify what I have.

Thanks, Luke

wheels
front right
wheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 03:27 pm:

rear leftwheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 03:34 pm:

Here's some help:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/80257/115355.html

AND


http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/238915.html


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 03:40 pm:

The ones that have the depression just above each lug hole are Hayes felloes. The depression is there to allow room for the "foot" of the lug:

pic1

Some Hayes rims have a straight edge on the outside where the depressions are, others have a rolled over edge and the depressions are pressed into the rolled-over edge.

Some Hayes rims have the "cup" around the hole for the valve stem, and some don't. Some rims have a "boss" that fits into that "cup", helping to protect the valve stem.

Interchange between rims of one manufacturer and felloes of another is limited. When you mount the rim onto the felloe, verify that the rim sits firmly on both the inside and outside edges of the felloe. Some combinations initially look like they fit, but leave an approximately 1/8 inch gap between the inside of the rim and the outside of the felloe. This does not provide proper support for the rim and can result in the rim "flattening out" in the space between the lugs.

Do a Google search for "rim interchange mtfca" and a bunch of earlier threads will come up discussing the various wheel manufacturers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 03:49 pm:

One other thing I should mention is to make sure that your hub bolts are tight. If they are loose, it can contribute to creaking and a wobbling wheel.

Ford originally peened over the ends of the hub bolts after the nuts were tightened. You can do this, or you can use Loctite on the threads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 04:16 pm:

Luke,

Several of the rims & felloes are NOT safely interchangeable. But others are. Any 30 x 3 1/2 rim can be fitted to almost any 30 x 3 1/2 fellow -- but again just because it fits doesn't mean its safe. The same is true for the early 1928 AR wheels and hubs and the later standard 1928-1929 wheels and hubs. They looked similar. They fit the hug and bolt pattern, but they were not safe (or at least Ford said they were not).

For your top 2 photos -- of the right front wheel. It appears to be a standard felloe for use with the fixed lug Hayes 2845B fixed lug rim or the Ford 2845B fixed lug rim. Those rims could be fitted safely to either the Hayes or the Ford felloe that was designed for the fixed lug rims. (Note -- Firestone, Cleveland, Motor Wheel, probably Ford and possibly others produced the "Ford" style felloe & rim. It was made to be compatible with the Hayes products.) Note some of those companies also made 30 x 3 1/2 inch demountable clincher wheels and rims for Chevrolet and other cars. And a Chevy rim will fit the T wheel and vice versa. But the valve stem does not line up the same. Drilling a new hole in the rim at the proper location can solve that. Drilling a new hole in the felloe only solves it for that one wheel. So I recommend re-drill the rim so the rim will fit any wheel. [Note if you are fitting a Model T fixed lug to the Chevy -- I would recommend re-drill the hole in the rim for the same reason. You want any rim to be able to be bolted onto any wheel or you will need to carry addition spare rims or fix the flat where it happens).

Below is an illustration from the Jan 1924 Ford Service Bulletins showing the various rims. Note only the Hayes 2845B and the Ford 2845B have the lugs permanently attached to the rims. The 2845, 2845C and 2845D had loose/removable lugs that held the rim to the felloe.



below are the words that go with that illustration.



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 04:23 pm:



(Message edited by Hap_tucker on August 14, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 04:23 pm:

Thanks for the help guys. I'll post some pictures of the rims a little later.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 04:37 pm:

Note that by the end of 1924 all the 30 x 3 1/2 demountable wheels and rims installed on new Fords at the factory had the Ford 2845B fixed lug style rim no matter which manufacture made the rim. From http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels it says:

In a letter to the Ford branches dated March 7, 1924, the following appeared:

Wheels and Rims

“The necessary changes have been made in the Kelsey wheel and rims also the Firestone and Cleveland rims so that with the exception of a few Kelsey wheels which are still to be shipped, we will have but one wheel and one rim for production, even though they are being shipped from three different sources. The felloe band on the Kelsey wheel has been changed so that it is exactly the same dimension as the Ford, Hayes, or Motor wheel and a car could be built with one wheel of each make. The rims have been changed to the ‘attached lug’ type and a car could be built using one rim of each Hayes, Kelsey, Motor Wheel, and Firestone.

“This arrangement will make it possible to report front demountable wheels as one item, rear demountable wheels as one item and T-8774 rims as one item. The bolts and nuts are also interchangeable…This arrangement will eliminate the necessity of carrying the stocks in your plant separately, i.e., when you receive a carload from Kelsey you can unload it and put material in the same pile with Hayes or Ford wheels and the rims with Hayes, Cleveland or Firestone rims.

“T-8834A Demountable Rim Clamp Nut for Kelsey wheels. Will be used for service on these wheels and also as a unit of one on all cars equipped with demountable wheels and will be known as the Tire Carrier Clamp Nut…

+++++++++++++++++

Below is a table to help show which parts went with which style felloe & rim. This is from the Jan 1926 Ford Service Bulletin.



Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 04:44 pm:

Ring around the stem hole is I believe a Firestone K, used on part of production of cars during 1922-23. It uses a rim that has a corresponding sleeve around the stem and loose lugs. Replaced with G series that has attached lugs, G rims were specified as replacements on the K wheels.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 04:50 pm:

a

b

c


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 05:59 pm:

here are some pictures of the rims
wheels
right front


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 06:01 pm:

back right
wheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Luke----central TX. on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 06:06 pm:

back left
wheels


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 06:50 pm:

Well, your right front is an early Hayes rim with the more "square shape" lug.

I'm not familiar with your back right rim, maybe a Firestone, can others chime in?

Your back left rim is a Ford 2845B with a broken off lug (could be welded back on, I suppose).

You certainly do have a variety of mis-matched parts!

Instead of trying to rebuild the mismatched parts you have, maybe someone in your area can work with you to come up with a good set of matched wheels and rims. Be sure to get a good, matched fifth rim for your spare! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 09:07 pm:

I agree with Mark. Get matching rims and felloes. What kind? I would go with Hayes. They're easy to ID, they're plentiful, and you already have some.


Hayes felloes have this notch over the bolt hole.


Hayes rims have a lug that extends across the bead, like this, to fit he notch on the felloe. Of course they also usually have HAYES stamped on the front of the lug.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 09:21 pm:

Layden,

Thank you so much for adding the information. When the pamphlet mentioned “Type K-1 – Sleeve Drive – Use Type G-2 rim for Replacement” You commented, “Replaced with G series that has attached lugs, G rims were specified as replacements on the K wheels.”

Can you confirm what a G-2 rim is. I would guess that it is a fixed lug Ford 2845B and my second guess would be it is a Hayes 2845B. But hopefully you will be able to read it and or see the illustration and not have to guess which it was.

The photos of the rim you show are the 2845C with the rolled bead. They take the 2846C removable lugs that have the nut held captive in the lug. Those require a felloe with the female receptacle for the lug to fit into. The photos below are from Steve Shelton with labels from me:





Note that the 2846D also has removable lugs but they do NOT have a captive nut. They also have a lug around the valve stem that fits into a receptacle in the felloe. But instead of the rolled area, they have a solid area that the clamps press against.



Note from memory (not as accurate as looking it up) the rim shown above worked with both the 2845C and 2845D rims -- but I suspect but I DO NOT KNOW that it is really for use with the 2845D.

One problem we have is so far I have not found any documentation to tell which fellow goes with the 2845C loose lug or the 2846D loose lug.

Luke you are showing that a 2845C rim is on your back right wheel. If it does NOT have the proper receptacle for the lug around the valve stem of the 2845C rim to fit into, the rim will slip on the felloe, cut the valve stem, and you will have a flat. Not bad if it is in your drive way at slow speeds. Not good if you slam on the brakes at high speed and you suddenly have a flat.

Based on what Layden posted and previous postings, I'm 90% sure you can put a Ford 2845B rim on your back right wheel "IF" it had the felloe for the 2845C or 2845D rims. If it was a Kelsey felloe -- the indents would need to be put in the felloe so the rim would tighten properly.

It is late and I need to quit for the night. But I really like this subject (I know – get a life….).

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 09:24 pm:

Luke,

It will make it easier (at least for me) if you post a photo of the rim with the valve stem area shown; the felloe with the valve stem area shown, and the lugs / lug areas for both. And do it by right front; left front; right rear; left rear; so we have the rims & felloes that were mounted at each corner.

Respectfully suggested,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Sunday, August 14, 2016 - 11:54 pm:

Hap,
You may have opened a can of worms with this one.
I greatly suspect that these are actually what Ford refers to as "FORD" in your above Ford literature. They seem to have been manufactured by Firestone.

a


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 07:15 am:

Why would anyone want to work crossword puzzles or Sudoku puzzles when wheel, rim, and lugs for Model Ts provide numbers, words, dates, aftermarket, and many more variables?

Layden,

Would you please post a scan of the

That is great news! From the illustration and also the other postings/data points the Firestone G-2 is almost certainly the same thing as the Ford 2845B rim shown below (third one from the top).



That Ford 2845B and the Hayes 2845B both have fixed lugs, but the Hayes style lug has a much longer foot that attaches to the rim as shown in the illustration above.

I would guess that after about Mar 7, 1924 even the Hayes lugs went to the shorter foot style – but hat is something else we need to confirm.

And from Bruce’s research he shared that Firestone, Cleveland, Motorwheel and others may have supplied the the non-Hayes and non-Kelsey supplied wheels and rims (i.e. they were called Ford rims – but actually made to Ford specifications. That would be the Ford 2845B; the 2845C (used lug with the captive nut); the 2845D (used the removable lug similar “U-shape as Kelsey but different and it had a chamfered depression and used the standard lug nut used on the Hayes wheels rather than the flat lug faced lug nut used on the Kelsey wheels before 1924). [Note this is USA only discussion for now.] we know that the Ford 2845B was produced by Firestone, Cleveland, Motorwheel, and even Kelsey after a few remaining loose lug Kelsey wheels were shipped after Mar 7, 1924 (see the letter above or go to the link at: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/U-Z.htm#wheels

Layden would you please check to see what rim the Firestone brochure recommended for the Ford 2845C style rim?

And does it provide any illustrations of the felloes that used the 2845C or 2845D rims?

For Luke – hang in there. The goal is to get you a set of 4 wheels and 5 rims that will fit safely on any wheel. I didn’t see what year your T is, but you do not have to have all the same rims or wheels as long as the rims all interchange and work properly.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 10:28 am:

I have the following observations to add to the discussion.
Prior to 1925, our Canadian sourced cars came with Kelsey loose lug wheels. We only had fixed lug rims in 1925, prior to the introduction of the 21" split rims in 1926.

There are major differences in how the rims/felloes relate. The rims on loose lug wheels have rolled edges to the felloe which are the same width on the outer and inner edges. The rims on these are wedged against the outside rolled edge when the wheel bolts are tightened. On a combination of good rim and felloe, there is a gap between the felloe inner rolled edge and the rim wide enough to accept a credit/business card.

On felloes to accept fixed lug rims, the inner rolled edge of the felloe is wider than the outer edge. The rims for these are designed to wedge against the wider inner rolled edge, and there will be the credit/business card gap between the rim and the felloe on the outer edge. The lugs on a non worn rim/felloe combination will stand away from the face of the felloe.

In addition, I have never seen a 23" felloe without the rolled edge on the outside, as shown above. This only occurs on 21" wheels out here. I note that they are named as Hayes rims. Our Hayes wire wheel felloes and the Hayes wooden wheels as used on Overlands all have the rolled in outer edge, with depressions to take the foot on the Hayes lugs.

When I get my roadster finished, and when I learn how to post from my mew phone, I will post photos.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Azevedo on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 11:11 am:

I have found something new and welcome your comments. I have four 23” Model T demountable wheels with rims and 30 x 3 ½” tires. The rims are split rims and are not clincher, but are straight side. The tires (3 are Firestone) are clearly 30 x 3 ½” STRAIGHT SIDE and not clincher. Were these supplied by Ford? Maybe export? I am told the 30 x 3 ½” straight side tire is no longer made; however, 31 x 4” tires with straight sides are for 23” rims and would probably work.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Layden Butler on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 01:15 pm:

Don,
Firestone, Hayes and Kelsey all made a 30x3 1/2 straight side rim. They were used either in place of clinchers as a retrofit for more weight capacity and longer tire life OR on Chevrolet closed cars in mid 1920s for same reasons.
There have been no actual 30x 3 1/2 clinchers made since during WW1. At that time the War Board standardized tire sizes to save rubber and they did away with the 30x3 1/2 in favor of 31x4. To not confuse the public, the clinchers were called "30x 3 1/2 oversize" and remain so today although the oversize is sometimes ignored.
Despite their higher price, I personally think that the great benefit of straight side tires is that they have a much larger footprint on the road and much better braking ability. On a Model T, they could be run on the rear with clincher fronts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Don Azevedo on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 01:53 pm:

Layden,
Thanks for the info. I think you meant "no actual straight side tires made since WW1". Straight side tires are also easier to mount!
Don


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 01:57 pm:

No, Layden has it correct. The true 30 x 3 1/2 clincher tires were phased out and replaced with "oversize" 30 x 3 1/2, which is actually a 31 x 4 size tire.

If you have what you think are recent 30 x 3 1/2 tires mounted on your car, get a ruler and measure them, I think you'll find that they are really 31 x 4, regardless of the markings on the sidewall. :-)

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/506218/562288.html?1439427044


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ross Harris on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 06:19 pm:

Hey guys can you tell me which one I have has only one lug on the rim and four rim clamp I posted pictures this is 1921 Canadian coupe wheel. Thanks Ross


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 06:52 pm:

Looks like a Kelsey 88:

pic

pic2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ross Harris on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 07:45 pm:

Thanks Mark I need a rim At least I know what to ask for now


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, August 15, 2016 - 08:04 pm:

Ross,

Yes, as Mark posted those are the Kelsey 88 style rims. See the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/304731.html?1344481369 for where to look for "Kelsey Wheel Company Windsor, Ontario Canada. And the second photo in that thread has the NO 88 stamp showing.


Note for the Canadian cars they often will have the spokes that are tapered so they are easier to mount the spokes into the wheel. Please see the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/304482.html for a photo of those.


Ford used their own part number 2845 for the Kelsey 88 rims. Below is from the Jan 1, 1925 Canadian Price List of Part page 10 & 12 (page 11 illustrated engine parts):





Below is from a 1926 Canadian Price List of Parts that Allen Peters posted. A little fuzzy but shows the loose lug and fixed lug for both the clincher and 21 inch Canadian demountable rims.





You probably will need to press and hold ctrl down while you roll your mouse wheel to enlarge that last one.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ross Harris on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 06:55 pm:

Thanks Hap Your always there with good info


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 07:30 am:

Ross,

Your welcome. So many have, and still are, helping me to learn more about our cars and trucks. And we all have so much more to learn -- or relearn what the average Ford parts counter person knew back in the day.

By the way the Kelsey 88 rim varied a little over the years. From memory, not as good as from notes, I believe some had slots cut into the rim for the clamp to seat against and others hat a flat spot but it did not penetrate the rim. If you have any of the style where the slot cuts through the rim, I would recommend sealing off the area with silicon etc. and let it dry. Then mount the rim. That should help keep the water from entering the rim so easily.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roy O'Neal on Saturday, November 05, 2016 - 03:38 pm:

In looking at these posts, I see photos of a KELSEY 88 rim posted by Mark Strange. I have been unable to locate one. I am looking for one of those rims with the 4 raised edges and the square Kelsey clip to seat against, just like in his photo. The square clip and this rim is what I have on my 21 centerdoor. I didn't know what the PN of the rim was(88), but I could not find one at Hershey, going by sight. I am in need of such a rim in the eastern U.S. I'm in Maryland
Roy


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Saturday, November 05, 2016 - 07:58 pm:

Roy, re the photo of the Kelsey 88 rim Mark posted.
There are no "4 raised edges" as you call them. Instead, there are 4 slots cut into the rolled bead in the rim. This means that water is able to get into the rim and cause rust problems. As well, the U shaped loose lug has a smaller surface in which to engage, and often this results in wear which can lead to the rim being loose on the felloe. There is a bridging lug which goes over the wheel bolt nearest the valve stem which prevents a loose rim rotating on the wheel.

There is a better rim which is directly interchangeable. Rather than a rolled in bead around the rim, it has a solid bead like the Kelsey 2845 shown by Hap. This rim does not let water in and the loose lug engages on a wider flat surface. This flat is also much easier to repair if it does ever become worn.

If you cannot find a rim to suit, I have some here from time to time, but shipping may be prohibitive.

Hope this helps.
Allan from down under.


Add a Message


This is a private posting area. Only registered users and moderators may post messages here.
Username:  
Password:

Topics Last Day Last Week Tree View    Getting Started Formatting Troubleshooting Program Credits    New Messages Keyword Search Contact Moderators Edit Profile Administration