just got on line on e-bay
The engine is Canadian and regard of serial number is 1923 not 1912...
Not a 1912 but built "in the form of" 1912. I see many later parts. Clipped springs, later rear end housings, NH carb, ... The engine serial no is also much later.
Hi, I know it may have many later parts but the heart of the car is 1923. I made my reference from Bruce W. Mc Calley which said engine built June 1923. Hope that help, because some people prefer having the most accurate possible car when they buy one. It is a simple gentle advice. For sure the Wagon is very nice.
The current serial number on eBay is C419037 for that reason is a 1923 engine.
And I've got a brass radiator cap on my 27, but when it's time to sell it, I'm going to list it as 1909!!
Who's gona know!!
Quote "it may have many later parts"
Get real Mario!
Other than a bit of tin, it's all later parts!!
Are you guy's actually expecting to see a real 19???? pie wagon?
Let me know when you find it.
Well one could still be out there!
Why not advertize things for what they are instead of what they are not?? Is a shay a model A?? Bud.
If the seller advertised it for what it is, guys on this forum would call him a crook or an idiot because 1923 T's don't have a brass radiator. Lighten up. It looks like a 1912 to people who don't care about taper leaf springs and riveted rear end housings. In fact, they will love the electric starter. Most eBay buyers are in this category. If the buyer doesn't care enough to research these things, that's their problem, we don't need to save them from themselves. People who know early T's don't need help seeing the car for what it is. Most people on this forum fall into this category. The crusade against guys who dare to claim a car is older than the average age of its parts is tiresome. Every person who has a model T has a car that is NOT %100 original. There are none existing. All of them have had at least had non original air added to the tires, maybe non original coolant added, even been refueled with non original gas. I mean no disrespect to those who strive to restore cars as close as possible to original specs. Quite the opposite, I admire them all the more because it is so much harder to do it right rather than use cheaper later parts.
a T guy will see it for what it is, but for some one looking to get into the hobby or an investment needs to know what it is full stop. It would be like buying a 10 for $100K+ and finding out it has a repo block, now the T is half it's value.
Advertising it as a 1912 museum piece and giving the impression of being nothing but authentic in the description amounts to no more than a scam.
Both of your perspectives have merit.
However - the Seller is not a private party.
They specifically state in the listing that it is a 104 year old car.
Below the listing in the Q & A section they acknowledge receiving several comments regarding the year of vehicle manufacture which they do not address specifically.
Are they intentionally misrepresenting this Model T as being a 1912 ?
It appears so by their own description ......
Conversely, wouldn't advertising a car as a 1927 when in fact it had the majority of its parts from other years also constitute some kind of fraud.
My belief is to advertise it as the year in which it is registered and so stating in the text.
An after thought:
I suppose to be accurate, you could dismantle the car piece by piece, document each part by year and then determine the year of the car by the sum of its parts by year.
With respect to a Model T ......
Earlier is more valuable in most cases.
To represent a 1912 model year by a dealer when all signs point to a much later model year is ____________.
I agree with you guys that this ad is quite misleading and could cause someone unfamiliar with model T's to pay too much. I wouldn't want that to happen, but it does all the time. If you are going to pay a bunch of money for something, you should do some research. The problem with eBay is that bidders are usually too far away to inspect things personally. And yes, it's one thing for a clueless private party to pull this, but a dealer should be held to a higher standard. At least they did give the engine number so anyone with any degree of curiosity could easily find the discrepancy. Opinions vary, but I respect all of yours.
Oh for goodness sake, none of us here can even agree on what year to call it, what the heck is an uninformed seller supposed to do? And, when some guy eventually buys it, likes it and has fun with it, some know-it-all will march right up and tell him it's a cobbled collection of multi-year junk and feel happy that they could ruin his day.
It's a neat car and it looks like fun. I hope someone buys it and loves it and calls it whatever year they feel like.
A friend tells me if you don't know anything about apples,know something about who is selling them!When i bought my first model T it was before we were on line and could ask anyone.I got skinned about 50% so is it my fault for trusting or the seller's fault for lying?? It would seem easy to tell the truth and set the reserve as high as you want?? Bud.PS,You can't polish a turd!!
Actually Bud, you can!
Now that's funny!!!!!!!
I believe that Mr. John Reagan, who owns Fun Projects, owns a genuine "Pie Wagon" made by Ford.
If I remember correctly, a few years ago there was an extensive article in "The Vintage Ford" detailing his painstaking correct restoration of this vehicle and how he found missing body brackets exclusive to that body.
So, yes, there exists such a vehicle.
Not just one - he has found another, so he has both known remaining originals
I disagree about it being a Pie Wagon. This looks like an express wagon body. You can roll up the canvas sides and rear (no doors but probably a tailgate). This is a very nicely done example of one of my favorite Model T body styles.
Has anyone tried to contact the seller to see what he has to say about it?
I ran it by him on the 14th that the description should have been more accurate.
This was some of his reply.
This model T is not a factory model and did not enter it in the model T forum to be judged buy club members. people who have contacted me about this wagon are fully aware of what my T is. They all had kind words. You can search the market for another model T and find a "correct" one for yourself. These cars are for fun, not to drive and not made for today's roads, they are just a novelty.
I have set a reasonable reserve for my wagon. How about comparing this wagon to the garbage 1911 model T pie wagon next to my ad, asking $35,000.00? My price is less than half of that one.
As we say in the south, if you don't have anything nice, don't say anything at all.
Sent from my ipad
"How about comparing this wagon to the garbage 1911 model T pie wagon next to my ad"
Well now, I'm pretty sure he's talking about my ebay offering. Should I be insulted?
I sure hope this isn't the kind of treatment that is the norm on this site?
Ebay listing now changed to a buy it now price of $16,500.00
Rod, sounds like you don't like competition on e-bay.
Well, for $16,5 it's a nicely done "brass era look" car that someone can have a lot of fun with especially if the mechanicals are up to par with the looks. It just needs to be presented to the public with honesty
it was the other seller that maligned my car, I have said nothing regarding his. As far as competition on ebay, I have no problem with it what-so-ever.
Another interesting part of his statement was "As we say in the south, if you don't have anything nice, don't say anything at all."
This in the same paragraph and after he called my car "Garbage".
I'm about to relist the car and would be interested in hearing how others might list it, especially about its year of manufacture.
Rod, sorry to hear that type of bashing hope your truck sell quickly...
I would hold off on relisting it. Fix the dashboard, clean up any other issues, and relist in a couple of weeks. The fit of the radiator, hood, and other aesthetics need to be remedied. Small but obvious mistakes or poor repairs turn off buyers, especially when coupled with a nice paint job. You want to avoid overexposure, which can lead to a good car not selling because buyers suspect something is wrong.
Apparently, it sold this morning for $14,500.
The "1911" sold this AM For $20,500.00!
Good for you, congrats. You never know when it comes to auctions.