What is the minimum voltage applied to the starter for it to engage and turn?

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: What is the minimum voltage applied to the starter for it to engage and turn?
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 09:47 pm:

I was wondering about that.
I'm a 6 volter. I was curious what the minimum requirement is to have the starter turn.
Having problems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 10:00 pm:

Don't know the voltage answer, but the first place to look is to make sure that all of the battery cable connections are cleaned to bare metal and secure. Be sure to scrape off the paint where the ground cable attaches to the frame.

Then, check the size of your cables, modern parts store 12 volt cables are too small.

Here are a couple of earlier threads on the subject:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/179374/244456.html?1319952739

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/289050.html?1337179476


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 10:04 pm:

Thank You Mark Strange.
I will read the entirety of the Threads.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 10:26 pm:

I once measured the battery voltage while cranking on a not so strong battery. At 4 volts, it was cranking slowly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ed Baudoux Grayling Michigan on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 11:13 pm:

Keep in mind, that under powering a starter motor, will burn it up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 11:23 pm:

I didn't smell anything burning or ozone.
The starter worked on day...and the next only clicked.
I have a Brand New Battery in the car.
Scratching my head.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 11:34 pm:

What is your starter switch like? Good new ones are made as of fairly recently. If you got one of the switches that was sold, say in the '80s,that may be your trouble, too. If somehow I missed someone mentioning this above, I apologize for redundancy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 11:37 pm:

JIm, it's a push button on the machined panel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 11:41 pm:

Mike, please explain. Are you using a solenoid??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 11:48 pm:

Forgive me for my Stupidity. I know vehicles well and have fixed all mine...even rebuilding an Auto Transmission in my basement.
But the model T, however simplistic it might be , makes me look like a 16 year old punk!

Jim, I don't know. How can I tell besides finding the obvious selenoid?
Would it be next to the starter? What would it look like.
Thanks for your help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Tuesday, August 16, 2016 - 11:48 pm:

Forgive me for my Stupidity. I know vehicles well and have fixed all mine...even rebuilding an Auto Transmission in my basement.
But the model T, however simplistic it might be , makes me look like a 16 year old punk!

Jim, I don't know. How can I tell besides finding the obvious selenoid?
Would it be next to the starter? What would it look like.
Thanks for your help.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 12:12 am:

If you have a solenoid, it has to be between the battery and the starter. Follow the cable. There are several varieties but, this photo would be a common type.Starter solenoid


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 12:21 am:

I realize I have an electrical problem.
First:I don't even need the key anymore to attempt to start.
When I first received the car, the only way I could turn the lights on was with a Toggle switch on the dashboard.All I have to do now is turn that switch to Magneto or Battery and the lights will come on regardless of the position of the toggle on the dash.
It wasn't like that before!!
I do NOT have a Magneto!
Uggh.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 12:28 am:

Sounds like you should not leave the car out of your sight unless the battery is disconnected until you get it sorted out. A manual disconnect would be a good bit of insurance for the future.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 12:31 am:

Yes...The Battery is disconnected.
I do have a Manual disconnect as well!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Hagerty on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 12:35 am:

Glad to hear that, Good luck in the search!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 12:44 am:

Is there a way to put a charger directly on the poles of the starter without damaging?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 12:46 am:

Yes...The Battery is disconnected.
I do have a Manual disconnect as well!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John F. Regan on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 01:17 am:

Once you get all of your problems resolved you will likely find that the disconnect switch itself is probably what is losing a lot of voltage and causing hard starting. They generally are added to cars with electrical problems by people who don't want to find and fix what is really wrong. I have 5 T's. Not one of them has a master battery disconnect switch nor will they ever get one. What IS needed is a main fuse in the battery supply line from the starter foot switch to the rest of the car. Disconnect switches cause failures of anything that cannot tolerate an intermittent voltage supply primarily the generator. The '23 is my driver and I have a very old but still good battery in that car. My advice is to return the car to stock wiring and toss away all of the junk electrical stuff that is supposed to help but actually ends up hurting. Install one and only one main fuse which will protect the wiring and not cause the issues that battery disconnect switches cause.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 02:00 am:

John F. Reagan...I hear you loud and clear.
Regards,
Mike.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 02:25 am:

I must also Thank the others for their input!
Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 04:33 am:

John knows his electrical stuff, and I would follow his advice to the letter. But one thing he didn't mention is this very useful item: http://www.funprojects.com/products/5055r.aspx

When you say you don't have a magneto, do you mean it's actually been removed, or it's there and just doesn't work? If it's there and not working, that could mean you have to pull the engine and remove the transmission to fix it, or not. Sometimes it's a simple repair done in a few minutes without major surgery.

In following the good advice to put things back in proper Model T order, you may find this helpful:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Chris Barker, Somerset, England on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 05:34 am:

I also removed a master switch fitted by the previous owner.
I have the main fuse recommended by John (and his regulator).

Despite careful cleaning of all terminals, I was only getting 3.7v across the starter motor. (Yes I still have a 6v system).
It worked but only just in cold weather.
I replaced the 1/0 cable with 2/0 cable (70mm2 area) and the volts rose to 4.1v. That's 10% more volts which means 20% more power. Much better.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Whelihan Danbury, WI on Wednesday, August 17, 2016 - 08:17 am:

The one thing reading this thread that I didn't notice is if you ever checked out the starter itself? Oil frequently oozes past the bearings in the nose cone and can coat the entire inside of the starter. Ford's solution was to drill a drain hole for the leaking oil to escape out the bottom. If that didn't work, that oil coated the brushes and commutator raising the voltage requirements. Sometimes you can get by just cleaning up the mess, but a better choice is rebuilding the unit and replacing the one-piece nose cone bearings with the 2 piece bearing variety with an oil seal to prevent seepage. The vendors sell those conversion kits.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - 10:50 pm:

Thank You Gents.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - 10:55 pm:

Whoops- btw I don't have a Magneto . Points and condenser.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - 11:11 pm:

First get yourself a set of jumper cables. Second connect them to your battery. Next connect the positive end to the starter lug. Ground the negative end to the engine. This prevents the positive from sparking and damaging the threads. If the battery and starter are OK it will crank and your problem is in the starter circuit/wiring. Properly diagnose and you will find the problem. I'll say this as a total guess: if you have a braided ground cable lose it their junk.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - 11:15 pm:

Thank You Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J!
I will start working on her tomorrow.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Esik on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - 11:16 pm:

Sorry to bother you..do you have a pic. of the starter lug?


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