Dirt track racer

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Dirt track racer
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - 10:27 pm:

Just of a couple of pictures of the dirt track racer I am restoring. Picked up the remains late spring from Steve Tomaso.





Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Thursday, August 18, 2016 - 10:37 pm:

Wow! John Steele was telling me about this, it looks awesome!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Clayton Paddison on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 02:30 am:

Damn....I want those wheels!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 03:53 am:

Mike, what can you tell us about that Gemsa head? Is there a number or a name on it? I see it is single ignition so it must be an early one. Partner just sold Clem Sala's single ignition Gemsa head that last ran at Long Beach in 1971. The Gemsa eight port crossflow head is the fastest pushrod overhead ever made for model T. Anyone claiming otherwise is welcome to get smoked with their Rajo, Frontenac, Roof, Indianapolis, Akron, Jern 28 Chevy, whatever, 4, 8, or 16 valve heads. You better hope you don't race Mike B with this one. Hope you have a stout bottom end Mike. This head comes alive at 2500 RPM and still wants more at 6000. Trust me. The huge port sizes make this a high strung beast that we like for unlimited class performance at the hill climb. Using a single carb and some exhaust back pressure will give more lower end response and street drivability. Choose your poison.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 06:29 am:

Mike,

That is one fast looking car and it is standing still, not yet finished! It is going to be awesome when you get it on the road.

I am curious about the rear spring set up (actually I curious about the entire car ... ). On the stock T rear axle the spring connects to the backing plate area. But on the 1906-1908 Model N,R,S, & SR it had two separate fully elliptical springs mounted just a little to the out side of the frame rails as shown below:



And your springs are mounted to the inside of the frame so I believe the mounting point on the rear axle tube is even further towards the center of the axle than the spring mount on the N,R,S, or SR. At the posting at: http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/641309.html Jerry VanOoteghem posted a comment about how attaching the springs further and further towards the center of the axle increased the bending moment on the rear axle tubes. Jerry shared:

++++++
“The rear springs on an NRS car mount to the rear axle fairly far inboard of the rear wheels. This causes more bending load on the rear axle housing. Also, the axle tubes on NRS cars are very thin and bend easily anyway. Most NRS housings are found bent today. Therefore, the factory supplied truss rod was very needed on NRS cars. Both those issues were addressed however with the 1915 & later T rear ends. Why Ford didn't use the truss on the 1909 - 1914 cars is the real mystery I suppose. He must have thought that moving the spring mounts to the backing plates took enough load off the housing to be o.k. They should have known they were wrong however after a year or two.”
+++++++

(Hap again) It is way too early for me to be figuring out how much the bending moment is increased as you move the spring mount closer to the center of the axle. I’m still working on my second cup of caffeine. Additionally the center of the axle is not fixed at a given height, but as one of the rear wheels move up or down it actually moves the entire axle. I.e. for a 3 inch bump the right wheel goes up 3 inches, but assuming the rest of the car’s tires are still on a level surface the rear axle is pivoting on the left rear wheel. So some of the force of the bump is taken up by moving the right rear side of the car upward. Some in compressing the spring (as well as the tire).

All that to say – if lots of folks used that configuration back in the day or even today – it probably works great and you don’t need to worry about it. If only a few used it – recommend you have someone smart with forces, moments, etc. do a quick analysis on it.

Also, if I understand Jerry correctly, in his posting above he believes the Model T rear axle tube is thicker/stronger than the Model N,R,S, & SR axle tube. I don’t have any data on the thickness/strength of the N,R,S, or SR or the T rear axle tube. But an accessory truss rod under the rear axle should add strength without adding a lot of weight. And they look nice also…..

Again, that is one great looking T you are working on. All of us are looking forward to seeing your continued progress.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Schreiber- Santa Isabel Ecuador on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 11:43 am:


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 05:13 pm:

Looking good, Mike - Vroom - Vroom !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By gary hammond on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 06:37 pm:

Here's how I feel about it- SWEET!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 07:43 pm:

Right, Looks awesome. Is that the set of wheels I just bought that you told me I would never see again? 1500 hundred miles is not far enough away Mike. :-)
I was warned about you. In fact you might have been the one that warned me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John P. Steele on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 07:48 pm:

This is the first time I've looked at the forum in over a week. What a surprise. By the way you and Bill are on the list. Bonneville was great.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 07:56 pm:

Guess this means I got to take them to Nick's in a few weeks. Kinda hoped you had a senior moment. LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kirk Peterson on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 08:00 pm:

Mike

Looks nice.
Keep us posted.
I will never forget you telling me;
"Drive her like you stole it"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stan Howe Helena, Montana on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 08:22 pm:

John, don't forget I'm only 75 miles away and I know where you store your wheels!!! By the way, did you see that the guy in Twin bought all those Model A's from Helena including all those coupe bodies and has them on Craigslist? One of them looked like a Bonneville coupe to me.............


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 08:24 pm:

Mike
Very nice!!
Now can I ask a couple of details??
1. With the tie rod in front, did you turn the steering arms "out" for the "Akerman"?
2. I suppose you will need a "reverse" acting steering box/mechanism? I made 3 sets of reverse worm gears for my Ross steering box project, thinking to use them for RHD cars. I think it would work here too.
Quite relevant to me as I'm thinking of building a "Fair Ground Racer". This front end looks quite interesting
Best wishes


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donnie Brown North Central Arkansas on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 08:47 pm:

Mike: Is the car at Bills ?? Ill probably be going to Bills shop in a week or so, Hope it is there as I would love to see it in person ... Looks great... I love that rear axle set-up :-) :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerome Hoffman, Hays Kansas on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 09:11 pm:

More more more pictures that is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jack Daron - Brownsburg IN on Friday, August 19, 2016 - 10:32 pm:

Mike,can we see more pictures of that rear spring mount area? What does the body look like?So far it looks great!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert A Weitzel on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 01:32 am:

Look
Again Eric That is Clem Salas. Head.
Sweet can't wait to see this run


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert A Weitzel on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 01:36 am:

Mike give me an email we can talk about water pump options 34 ford v 8. Bolts on or use early water housing with flat plate


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 01:44 am:

Robert, well that explains a lot. These almost never come up for sale.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Robert A Weitzel on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 02:38 am:

Mike is this getting the Paco. Body on it that Andy is building ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 07:00 am:

Well John Steel caught me, been to my house many times, so he knows where I live. Besides John, Nick Nicholas and I get together and beat up Nick's #42 car. If you have been to the hill climb in Lincoln, the last couple of times, there is nobody that has more fun then "two fat guys and a skinny dude", John's words not ours.
Eric yes the head is Gemsa #9.
Les I will be working on the steering today. Will post more pictures.
John D will get some more pictures of the rear axle set up, working through all of the suspension trying to sort it out.
Right now I have more questions then answers.
This is a picture as Steve Tomaso found the remains in 1994.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:32 am:

Wondering if you will put it truss rod on the rear axle, considering how close in the springs are attached?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:35 am:

I suppose another option for steering is having the drag link run back, parallel to the radius rod. That would work well too


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 02:18 pm:

Les

Pictures say it all. Still sorting it all out Let me know if there is something more you would like






Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 02:22 pm:

Jack D

A couple of shots for you.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 02:33 pm:

Mike
All looks great
Thx


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Bender Tulsa Oklahoma on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

Les.

Not to sure just what I will do on the rear end. It may have had something attached to the rear housing but I was not able to get them so big question to sort out. There is some flat steel that was over the top of the rear axle and had something mounted. For all that have asked this was and will be a bob tail body.


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