Combination headlamp switch/horn questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Combination headlamp switch/horn questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Lynn on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 08:26 am:

I was lucky enough to locate a very nice combination headlamp and horn unit with bracket today for my un-restored 18.

Question is, does anyone have a diagram showing how this was wired up and or how the wires are mounted to the firewall?

You might remember that I have the dimmer coil which has 2 wires coming from the unit itself.

Thanks guys.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:13 am:

This should help.










Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:55 am:

Hi Dan,

Your last picture confuses me as it shows the dash mounted headlight switch and no dimmer coil. The other two pictures are spot on and thank you for them. Bill


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 02:39 pm:

Shouldn't an '18 have the horn button on top of the steering column?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 03:21 pm:

Dave,

A Canadian Model T up through approximately 1919 has the horn button still mounted on top of the steering column just like the 1915-1917 USA Model Ts that had electrical horns (i.e many 1915 and a few 1916 came without an electrical horn and used a bulb horn instead.)

One of the common marks of a USA 1918 is the combination horn light switch. Although I am sure there would have been some overlap when both the old style and the new style were both used. And that would likely depend on when and where the car was produced.

Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1917.htm where Bruce has for the 1917 model year:

1917 -- STEERING COLUMN ASSEMBLY: Pressed steel, black painted, quadrant, Nickel-plated spark and throttle levers, with flattened metal ends. Gear case was brass but nickel plated, one piece assembly. Wheel was 15 outside diameter, wood, and painted black. The wheel spider was iron and painted black. Horn button remained on the top of the steering column, as in the previous models.

Ref: http://www.mtfca.com/encyclo/1918.htm where Bruce has for the 1918 model year:

1918 -- STEERING COLUMN ASSEMBLY: Pressed steel quadrant, Nickel-plated spark and throttle levers, with flattened metal ends. Gear case was brass but nickel plated, one-piece assembly. Wheel was 15 outside diameter, wood, and painted black. The wheel spider was iron and painted black. Combination horn/light switch on left side of column.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Johnson on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 04:06 pm:

The documentation pertaining to the combo horn button and the removal of the light switch from the firewall has been researched by John Regan and, based on surviving cars, the combination horn/light switch didn't show up until a few months into the 1918 model year.

If you search the forum, you can find more pertinent and exact information without me having to repeat it here.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Lynn on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 04:13 pm:

Thank everyone!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 04:45 pm:

Eric,

Thank you for the reminder about John Regan's posting.

+++++++++++++++++++++++
At http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/118802/156885.html John shared:

The hole for the headlamp switch was removed from the dash board drawing as of 10/2/17. Remember that this is the date that the design changed - not the on-the-car date. Thus there would still be inventory on hand of dashes with light switch hole on that date. Usually when Ford phased in such a change that totally relocated something - he coordinated that with inventory of existing parts so that it all worked out but also remember that he would continue to have replacement parts on hand so he likely still had light switches in stock when the hole was completely gone. There are ample examples in the "record of changes" where Ford stated exactly how old parts/materials were to be used up. It clearly would look like a 1918 phase in date since the 1918 model year begins on 10/1/17 and this change takes place after that date. If the change was phased in before that date then there would be dashes with empty holes in them and I have never seen that but that does not mean it to be impossible. I think more likely the change to the new switch occurred when the new dashes started to show up and if the dash had a hole in it - they used the old switch. They had not yet rerouted any wiring formally.

On 12/8/17 they added pilot holes to the front side of the dash for mounting the dimmer coil which was not used with the push/pull switch. The dimmer coil was a tapped inductor that had 3 wires and was used in conjunction with the combo switch.

ON 12/18/17 they moved the junction screw for the headlight wire from its location just to the right side of the carb hole to a new location just to the left of this hole. This would seem to indicate a new route for the headlight wire at least slightly since the switch had moved so it makes sense to probably reroute the wire and its junction screw.

Again I must remind you that all of these dates are design change dates rather than on-the-car dates.

++++++++++++++

Respectfully re-posted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Wells, Hamilton Ontario on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 09:12 am:

Thanks for that info. You might want to check out the classifieds. There is an auction listed in South Dakota. It has a very correct looking "1917" Touring listed. It has the combination horn and light switch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, August 22, 2016 - 07:13 am:

Dave,

Thank you so much for the lead. We never know which one of the "fossil finds" may add something to our data that we never knew about before. Or may add yet another question of "did they really do that and if so when?"



Most Model T's have parts from various years. In this case the rectangular shaped steering column to dash flange indicates the steering column was originally from a 1926-27 vehicle. So we know that part was replaced. I would normally anticipate a horn button that was not a combination horn & light switch on that late of a column. But, we know the column was replaced. And if the owner wanted a light switch that would have been one option to install.

Note also in the other photos on the site, the windshield hinges are unequal length and the windshield to body brackets are not the riveted type but the later mid 1917 to 1922 style with the screws.

Based on the above I don't think that "fossil find" is as helpful as it would have been if it had been a Rip Van Winkle type Ford etc. Note the Rip Van Winkle Ford is a Jun 1917 time frame. It has the horn switch on top of the steering column, the unequal length windshield hinges, and the later 1917-1922 windshield to body brackets. (ref page 269-269 of Bruce's book).

But I had much rather hear about something that wasn't as helpful as we hoped than to not hear about something that could unlock a mystery we have been trying to solve. So thank you so much for the lead!

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Monday, August 22, 2016 - 07:13 am:

oops it posted twice -- I deleted the 2nd time.

(Message edited by Hap_tucker on August 22, 2016)


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