Creeping crawling and so forth

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Creeping crawling and so forth
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 05:18 pm:

History Lost rivet out of revers drum resulting in tear down to fix. 2 cracked drums in the spokes, worn Kevlar bands, good turbo clutches with no or little wear. Engine very good since 3 year old rebuild. Worn triple gears bushings. Cracked flywheel at triple gear pin (one)
Current issue-Put 2 new Dave Nolting drums in with gears that he rivet onto his drums,(very nice job Dave) reverse and low. Decided to go back to Ford clutch discs. New Kevlar bands. Put everything back together after balancing all newly rebuilt components. Set clutch spring to 2" per book. Car has very little to no neutral. Set high speed adjuster per specs. Brake pedal needed to hold car back on initial start. After 3 or 4 seconds, car settles down and can be held with hand brake or with brake lever in mid way position. (still wants to creep a little) Have adjusted bands several times and no happy spot. Going into high, shift is abrupt. I was hoping for smoother shifts with Ford clutches as compared to turbo's.
Fingers holding clutch spring are movable with lever pulled all the way back.
What the hell am I missing? Need to get it done before the Ohio Jamboree. (Labor Day)
Any ideas or suggestions are welcome. If this is what Ford clutches feel like, I will go back to turbos.(or at least am tempted)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 05:57 pm:

Tom, for what its worth, i had the same condition after installing new Ford discs. A slight creep until warm, and a somewhat abrupt shift between low and high. After about a 100 miles it all settled in and now shifts as smooth as silk. How many miles do you have on the new discs?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Tillstrom 30 miles N of Memphis TN on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 06:06 pm:

I have found just taking the hogsheads off and back on can cause the need to adjust the low speed link and the bolt on the clutch shaft. Replacing anything will guarantee the need for adjustment. To confirm, if the car can be held in neutral with the pedal without creeping then the bolt needs adjusted. The 2" clutch measurement is to set the spring tension on the clutch which is unrelated. Good luck. Gary


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 06:15 pm:

Maybe you are using oil that is too thick?



The clutch adjustment is set at 13/16" when it is released in my Ford manual. I use a Ford 1/2" RH lug nut as a g / no go gage when assembling transmissions.



The clutch link may need to be made longer if there is a lot of wear in the various components.
I have to do this on almost every Model T to get the neutral right. Click here:
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/411944/478111.html?1410348928


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 06:44 pm:

John, I have only driven it up and down our 600 foot drive way trying to get adjustments correct.
Gary, I replaced all of the high speed components and welded up and re-drill the hole on the lever that connects the adjuster to transmission rod lever? The only reason I mentioned the 2" adjustment is because the Ford Bible says that the assumption is the spring is adjusted properly before making any high speed adjustments. I will work on the bolt adjuster tomorrow.
Royce, I thought about oil. I have been using 20W-50 Castrol GTX for years. That being said, I have been running turbo clutches for years and this is the first Ford clutches I have had in any of the 4 cars for as long as I can remember. Maybe I can use it on turbo's and not Ford!
As a plus to all of this, the newly balanced flywheel with no slingers on a car running a dizzy sure makes for a smooth running engine. I am also interested to see what the round funnel type internal oil lines do, the ones that mount to the oil pan inspection cover.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 09:16 am:

I left out the photo of where the 13/16" lug nut fits. It makes clutch adjustment super easy and precise:



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 10:02 am:

And to add to Royce's photo.

Ford Service picture, Para. 315.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 10:49 am:

Tom, If you have a reproduction Ford clutch pack that may be part of the issue. I tried a set and had similar results. I had another issue with the transmission, and upon removal, found several of the plates had galled. If going to Ford plates I think I would only recommend originals. Went to a Turbo 400 clutch and my neutral issues went away.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 12:54 pm:

Tom, I had similar problems when I installed all new Ford plates in the transmission in my coupe. I installed good original Ford plates and the transmission shift very smoothly and has a great neutral with no creeping.

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 06:27 pm:

The clutch plates are good ole Ford originals.
I will review the clutch adjustment as others have recommended using spacers instead of a spring measurement. Been paying with the bolt adjuster and just about got a good neutral.
The turbo's will probably go into my next rebuild unless something changes in a major way with these. I will keep trying to change things to try to get where I need to be.
Thanks to all for the suggestions. I much appreciate the help.
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 10:22 pm:

How is your parking brake adjustment? My roadster was creeping on initial startup, so today I adjusted the rear brakes. I found that they were way too loose. I tightened the clevises three full turns. No more creep.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Monday, August 22, 2016 - 09:11 pm:

Before I took this engine apart, the same starter being used then as now, feels like it is working hard to spin the motor/transmission. Was not like that before re-work. I have managed to get to the point where once started, after a few seconds, the e brake can be released with very little or no creep. When I get back home Thursday, I will take a close look at the clutch finer adjusters and use the wheel nut trick to see what that measurement is. Once that is verified, I will see what it drives like.
Steve, the e brake is a little loose as I had relined those brakes and are gradually getting them fully adjusted to correct. Fitting them was a chore too!
I do appreciate everyone's comments and suggestions. Before this one, these adjustments on other cars have been fairly easy and straight forward.
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 06:38 pm:

Your clutch spring might be a bit strong. Ask a friend who has a T to let you push his clutch lever. You might find the spring in yours to be much stronger. If that be the case, you will need to learn to let out the pedal slower as you engage high. If you let it out quickly, you will experience very abrupt shifting.

Other possible causes have been addressed above.

Another thing to check to be sure the clutch releases and that the bands don't drag would be to put the parking brake lever in the neutral position on a flat surface and try cranking the engine with the ignition off. The car should not move. Then try pushing the car. The engine should not turn. It is normal to have a slight creep when you start a cold engine, but after a few minutes, it should not creep.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 08:25 pm:

Norm
The actual push pressure on our other 3 T's is about the same. When I get home later this week, I will do the other adjustment using a spacer instead of a measurement. I may even back the finger screws out a Hal turn just to see what that might do.
Thanks
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 07:01 pm:

Hopefully my last post for this thread.
My thanks to all for the comments, suggestions, help, thoughts, etc., for the remedy for my creeping problem. While I have used the spring measurement for the clutch adjustment, I now realize the measurement and spacing of 13/16" on the finger is the way to go. I did this tonight and most of my problem went away. Shifting is better, creeping, while not solved, is much better. Car runs like it should. I also was able to adjust the quadrant bolt a little which help in the shifting.
However, in the future, I will go back to turbo clutches. They seem to be much more forgiving and even though the clutch engagement is a little more harsh, I really like the positive neutral.
Thanks again to all the great people of the forum.
Tom


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 07:44 pm:

20W-50 is perfect if you live in Saudia Arabia or some place where it is never cooler than 90 degrees F.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Stephen D Heatherly on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 08:29 pm:

Tom, how are the turbo 400 clutches more forgiving?

Stephen


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 08:52 pm:

Try using 5W30 oil. Or straight 30 oil. 50 is too thick, in fact it's a wonder the bearings haven't gone out. All you have for oiling is the little tube and/or whatever external oiler you might have. All gravity flow. The thinner oil might leak out or burn off sooner, but it is much better for lubrication.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom Moorehead on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 09:39 pm:

When I say more forgiving, I have done 6 transmission reworks and never had this neutral situation when using turbos. That's all.
Been running my depot hack since 1999 when the engine was completely rebuilt. Car probably has 10K miles on the motor. Check the rods and mains last year. Had to take .002 out of rods and nothing out of mains. Had .0015 clearance on all when done. I have no complaint using 20-50 on this one and the other 3.
But I hear what you are saying.


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