'24 title with '27 engine # on title

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: '24 title with '27 engine # on title
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Thomas R. Hicks on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:15 pm:

I recently bought a tt with a title that says it is a '24. The VIN # on the title is she same as the number stamped on the engine and is in the 14 million range, making the engine a '27.

It seems to me that if a '24 had a later model engine installed, the title # should remain the same. Can someone explain the discrepancy to me?

Also, this is my first post on this forum. I have learned a lot about t's in the last 2 weeks working on my tt, and this forum and its posters are a goldmine of information. I have lots of questions, but I will refrain from bombarding you guys with stuff unless I can not find it with the search engine. Thanks for all your help!

(Message edited by tt newbee on August 20, 2016)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dallas landers on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:27 pm:

Is there a tag anywhere on firewall that someone made?
That's what mine had, 26 with 22 motor.
It was small and very rusty, had to sand it to see numbers
Your right about forum, these guys have knowledge that's not in books or Internet . I've had my T about 4 months and they have helped me many times


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:34 pm:

Clarification:

The title says '24
The VIN # on the title is 14 million+ (1927)
The engine # matches the title (1927)

Wouldn't a '24 have a '24 engine # for a VIN number on the title? If you had a '24 and put a '27 engine in it, would you change the VIN # on the title to the new engine #?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:44 pm:

The pedigree of most Model Ts and TTs is suspect. No telling what was done to them over the years. Engine swaps were common in the day to keep a chassis rolling. Titles didn't always exist, and in some states for old vehicles they still don't. When your TT had to have a title generated, it probably already had the 26 engine installed. The engine number was the only number on a T until some time in 1926 when the frames were also stamped. Since it may very well be a 1924 chassis, the only number available to put in a title was the number on the 1926 engine.

So enjoy your 1924 TT with a 1926 engine. At least you have the wide brake drum instead of the narrow that would be on a 1924 if the engine came with its associated transmission.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:45 pm:

I see nothing to worry about. Somewhere in days gone by a former owner who may not have had a title re registered the truck using the number of the engine that was in place. Perhaps all he had was a bill of sale and the # of the obviously replaced motor. You have a legal title so no sweat. I had a '27 Tudor with letters in the VIN. Legal N.J. title. The guy that bought it from me didn't have a second thought about it either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Zibell, Huntsville, AL on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:46 pm:

Sorry, meant to say 27 engine. I need to figure out how to edit posts.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Saturday, August 20, 2016 - 10:52 pm:

Which brings up my next question. Is there an easy way to tell a '24 chassis from a '27 chassis?

For example, the '27 engine has the coil box mounted on the engine, which I assume was common in '27. The firewall has holes which would align properly if one had the coil box mounted on the inside of the cab on the firewall. Would a '27 firewall have those holes? Or do those holes indicate a '24 chassis?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 09:01 am:

If the title is clear don't worry about it. The only time a 'T' was pure and unaltered was when it came off the assembly line.
After nearly 100 years if your T still has a clear title that's a good thing whether the car has the original engine or not!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hap Tucker in Sumter SC on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 09:06 am:

TT_newbee,

Welcome to the forum and the wonderful world of Model Ts and TTs.

Disclaimer: I do not own a Ton Truck so I can’t just go out and check. There were several articles on 1926-27 Ton Truck chassis fitted with a fire truck body but I did not find a good article on a 1927 Ton Truck that also discussed the coil box location. But all of the 1926-27 Fire Trucks clearly had the coil box mounted on the firewall.

To my knowledge (and there is always more to learn) the firewall for the 1924-1927 Model T Ton trucks remained the same as the firewall for the 1924-1925 model year car (note 1924 had a 4 rivet patent plate that changed to a 2 rivet patent plate in 1925 and a few other minor details). I believe the coil box on the 1926-27 Ton Trucks with the factory C-cab or closed cab as well as the chassis only all would have used the coil box on the firewall.

Good news – if I said anything wrong, it is often easier to get a response to something that is wrong than to something that is right. So we should hear in “nanoseconds” if my “understanding” is all wet and we may or may not hear anything if it is correct.

Note – since you are new to Model Ts – are sure it is a factory Model T Ton truck and not an aftermarket conversion? Are you sure it is not a 1918-1923 TT rather than a 1924-1927? Etc.

To check on the 1918 (they only made 3 or so in 1917) to 1923 TT compare the size of the firewalls as shown below:





Recommend you post some photos of what you have and that will help. Also contact the local Model T Ford club near you.

Respectfully submitted,

Hap l9l5 cut off


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Lightfoot on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 09:30 am:

Hello Tom, Welcome to the TT world. Yes there is great information on this forum. I recently bought a 1919 C Cab TT???? With a 1926 engine, Ford did not make the C Cab until 1924 so I had my title corrected with a certified vin inspection. Strange things have happened over the years as was stated. I have a Muncie transmission in mine. And to let you know there is a Ton Truck Club look them up, they can be a good source of information. Enjoy your TT. Jim


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By JohnCodman on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 10:20 am:

Hi Tom, Welcome aboard! There are probably more Ts with replacement engines then with the originals. As was said earlier, only the later Ts had numbers stamped on their frames, so the engine number was all there was to work with for identification purposes. Don't worry about it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Derek Kiefer - Mantorville, MN on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 10:28 am:

When I bought my '25 Touring, the title said '24. Everything on the car is '25 and the engine number dates to May of '25.

When I transferred the title, I mentioned that the year was listed wrong, and printed off the MTFCA encyclopedia page listing engine numbers by month. The lady working called up to the state office, confirmed that my information was correct, and when I received the title, it was corrected to 1925.

Overall, it added about 10 minutes to my DMV visit, and was trouble-free. Your state may be more difficult to get a corrected title, but in MN it was very easy. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 11:20 am:

Thomas,

My TT is an '18 with a '23 engine. I obtained it in about 1999. At that point it hadn't been licensed since 1941 (the plate was still on it). It was my grandfathers orchard truck, used on his ranch until 1963, so I know for a fact it was in use for many years on private property without being registered.

When I got it going again in about 2004 I did what others here did. I used the encyclopedia to demonstrate the year model to the DMV. So, my 1918 TT is registered as a 1923. It just wasn't worth the trouble to try to get the DMV to accept it as an '18.

Although you'll probably never know for sure, I bet your truck has a similar story. It sounds to me like someone replaced the engine in your '24 with a '27 engine, corrected the "VIN", and that's what you have. In modern times that would be very difficult (impossible) to do, but over the past 90+ years almost anything is possible.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 11:32 am:

Thank you all for your input.

Hopefully two pictures will upload.



One is the firewall which is 28" wide.

The next is a sideview of the truck.

I will stop worrying about the title!


Now, please speak up soon before I do something really stupid. I am not the type who wants to own a 100% original vehicle, or even one which is really nice that I would be scared to drive. I don't want the responsibility. Those cars are for people who are knowlegable and really care. I appreciate this TT for its history, but it is for FUN. It is not in great shape, it is an old used truck, but that makes it perfect for me. I want it mechanically solid and safe to drive.

Now the "something stupid" is making this TT functional for my purposes and that means leaving the bed, but cutting most of the cab off. Someone took time and built a nice cab, but it is not what I want. I want a truck that is easy to get into and out of and expect to be riding back roads with as many as eight passengers in the back. The best way to do that is an open cab allowing me to see behind me for safety, and for loading passengers would climb into the cab via the running board, then step on the seat and over the back of the seat onto the bed. Look at the four supports on the side of the bed! This was well built and sturdy and I want to keep it, I would make a few modifications for passenger comfort and safety.

So the question is does the cab have any great value either historically or financially? I can do this modification without changing the vehicle itself, only the wooden cab. And it would fit into the garage after the chainsaw massacre! Obviously I have pretty much decided to do this, but I won't if someone can point out that I would be damaging something historical.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 11:39 am:

Another attempt at posting pictures of '24

TT


Error

One or more of the images or attachments you uploaded exceeded the maximum allowable upload size (which is 250 kilobytes). These images or attachments have been removed from your post. If you would like to include images or attachments, upload new files after you make sure that the size is not greater than 250 kilobytes.


Technology, the solution to all of our problems, and the cause of most of them...

I will try to get some pictures with fewer kilobytes later. It means adjusting my camera, not something I know how to do.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Henry Petrino in Modesto, CA on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 11:42 am:

We need pictures to answer your question. It sounds like you have a wood cab. Some period aftermarket cabs can be worth quite a bit. I advise you to not touch it until you know what you have.

The cab on my '18 was cut down sometime around 1941 to make it into an orchard truck. Cutting the cab top off prevented it from damaging the trees.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 11:52 am:

Maybe these will post...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 11:54 am:

side view....24 tt


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 11:56 am:

Very nice! That is one big teddy bear. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 12:13 pm:

Henry, your orchard truck is a thing of beauty. I think that is part of why I like tt's, many are functional. They have been modified by their owners in years past to suit their needs.

Mike, Mr. Bear is harmless, but he sure can be aggravating. He has the mentality of a two year old. A BIG two year old. Whenever I pull out the camera he wants to get in the picture. Then I have to decide if it is worth the fight to get him out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ted Dumas on Sunday, August 21, 2016 - 06:13 pm:

You have a good title with the correct motor number. The 27 engine and transmission has the hogshead bolted to the back of the block, a wider brake drum, and wider pedals with more space between for your feet. Its really a much better unit than the 24 but still has the same 20Hp.


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