A Tough Day In Rim-Rock :-( :-( :-(

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: A Tough Day In Rim-Rock :-( :-( :-(
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 09:42 pm:

After a 120 mile tour Saturday I stopped by a friends house.
We heard a little knock.
We found this.

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 09:58 pm:

UFFDA........ :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Gumbinger, Kenosha, WI on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 10:05 pm:

Bummer! :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Lloid on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 10:23 pm:

Wow. Not good.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Burger in Spokane on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 10:24 pm:

You found that the crossword puzzle was already filled in ???


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Scott Batta - Dayton, Ohio on Tuesday, August 23, 2016 - 10:27 pm:

According to the knock, I would say the police were serving a warrant!!! Yikes...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 06:42 am:

Cause???

Reason ?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eubanks, Powell, TN on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 08:23 am:

Put a Terry Horlock oiling system on there and that will not happen again.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les Schubert on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 09:27 am:

Dave
Kinda looks like a lousy tinning job.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 09:38 am:

I know only a little about re-babbitting process, but when you have 3 bad bearings, all at once, I've got to doubt the quality of the babbitt job. If Les thinks it's tinning, I'll definitely agree with that. It sure doesn't look like lack of oil, since there is no galling, melted or smeared babbitt or other signs of heat. The remaining babbitt looks smooth.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 09:44 am:

It does look like it just disintegrated. The 4th. is OK? (not that I'd re-use it after that display).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 02:57 pm:

All four rods are being replaced.
The crank is OK (all are .013 under).
The babbit work was done about 2006.
I know the block was tinned - not sure about the rods.
I have put about 10K to 15K miles on it.
This is the first time there has been any engine noise.
I bought .020 rods and they will be fitted to the crank.

Thanks for all of the comments.

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 04:49 pm:

Bob, it is not usual for the block to be tinned. The main bearing caps should be, but the babbit is keyed into the block. Heating it enough to allow tinning would be a problem. Rods should be tinned as usual.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By john kuehn on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 05:33 pm:

The babbit in those rods wasn't beat out. It turned loose. It looks like it 'didn't stick' when it was poured. Wasn't tinned very well or the rods weren't clean enough.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 05:37 pm:

All the oil in the world won't save a bearing that is improperly poured. These rod bearings were not bonded. No heat transfer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Wednesday, August 24, 2016 - 09:05 pm:

Allen,

I believe that is what was done to mine - caps were tinned, not the block.

I must have had a cerebral malfunction <grin>.

Be_Zero_Be.

P.S. My new rods arrived today from Langs.
Ordered Monday - Arrived Wednesday - Coast to Coast !!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 03:03 am:

Rods, rod caps, and main caps are tinned and bonded, blocks are not. It doesn't work well with cast iron. Guys will post claiming to have done it. Ford had virgin castings with no oil contamination and still they used dowel holes to anchor the babbit and then had to pein it after it shrank away from the block. Allen is correct, heating the block enough to attempt tinning is asking for trouble. Even then, 90 years or more of oil soaking into the casting will make it difficult. Babbit is more art than science we have found.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Doug Money - Braidwood, IL on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 03:14 am:

Bob, when you reassemble the rods, you should put the bolts in first and then safety wire them. The safety wire works much better that way. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Cascisa - Poulsbo, Washington on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 01:48 pm:

Doug,

This is Left Handed safety wire for use below the equator. Thar's how it is supposed to be. :-) :-) :-)

Be_Zero_Be


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Allan Bennett - Australia on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 08:48 pm:

Bob, someone is pulling your leg. Down under safety wiring is done from underneath the car, so the twists are supposed to be below the rod cap. Too hard to do it that way.

Allan from down under.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 10:55 pm:

Erik B,
Ford Service Bulletin, gives a detailed description on the factory method of Ford main bearings, no mention at all of peining on new engines.
Peining only gets a mention when re-building an engine.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 11:18 pm:

Mains were peened at the factory, I seen it in a Ford movie that I.P,T. ran a few years ago.

It showed them heating the block and pouring jig, then when the jig was lifted out, they were peened while very hot.

Same kind of peening tool as a Wilson, but NOT hit with a hammer, but a air, or electric hammer, which is far better, was used, and the Wilson Type tool was in the Hammer.

The holes in the block are not there to to keep the Babbitt in, you have to peen. The holes are there to keep the bearing from spinning, its the only Key for the block.

Herm.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Thursday, August 25, 2016 - 11:21 pm:

Frank, I have seen a picture in the book that deals with manufacturing the model T. I think it is titled "Ford Methods and Ford Shops" or similar. It shows a worker using a pneumatic hammer peining the bearings while still hot as soon as the molds are stripped. Herm K. has also made mention of the process.
Fordially, Erik.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 12:05 am:

Well who do you believe?? Ford Service Bulletin says at the factory,
Quote,
"The high pressure babbitt metal is poured into the UNHEATED block"

And the engine rebuild with K.R. Wilson equipment, again, a cold block.

(I do a hot block pour with a 100% success rate)

Not that I care how anyone else does it, as long as it works.

It's like the non demountable wheels, some film clips and photos show assembled with a hot and shrink fit and others of just a cold press fit.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By kep on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 01:34 am:

Still make it home, probably..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 02:05 am:

Frank, What you don't under stand again is, Ford didn't, and Wilson said that Ford didn't use a step to preheat the block. You or any body else can pour into a cold block, with out the Babbitt exploding, it doesn't, and never will or could work.

What they did do was lay a Wilson Type pouring jig in the block, and then heated each main with a big torch, which not only got the pouring bar very hot, but also got the block mains very hot.

That's how it was done.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 02:32 am:

I guess Herm and I were typing at the same time, he beat me to posting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 02:41 am:

Herm is spot on, we too use a Wilson type pouring rig, with some improvements. While we are heating the whole rig with a big torch, the block is heated enough to drive off water and any other contaminants which could cause a babbit eruption or holes in the bearing. We use a non contact thermometer and heat the rig mandrel to around 400. By then the block is ready but not overheated. We use an aluminum mandrel smaller than the original to pour bearings for undersized cranks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 03:51 am:

Hey fella's, all I'm doing is pointing out "FORDS" publications of the period, what you don't understand is I didn't write it or claim it was right or wrong. I'm sure like me, Herm & Erik, with today's cleaning methods, heat is not a problem, but Erik, Ford says not to use a torch on a block for the very reasons you are.

"Blow torch or any other heating apparatus as this tends to draw out oil from the porous cast iron, which forms an oxidized surface and prevents the pouring of a good bearing"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Paul Vitko on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 09:51 am:

I wonder how good shop heating a block works?

After seeing a Babbitt blow up from a block I had melted out the mains with a weed burning torch its not funny!
Sense then I put an oven in the shop heating the block to about 600 degrees and the block oil

impregnated iron comes out in powder. I will use Mike Benders method to clean the block Babbitt area before pouring.

Always some thing to learn with the Babbitt art!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 11:33 am:

The rods shown in the first photo are something I've seen before and recognize.

It is very possible that the new rods, likely before they were even installed, were out of alignment (bent and/or twisted a bit). (That is to say, they were not manufactured absolutely straight).

A rod that is not absolutely straight might function and sound totally normal for several thousand miles until one day a noise is heard and upon investigation, you may find one or more rods that appear as shown in the above photo.

The main issue is that a mis-aligned rod has a tendency to "hammer" fore and aft on the crank journal until the babbitt work hardens to the point that it fractures and crumbles. Odds are that MAYBE the "bond" of the babbitt was not as good as it should have been, but on the majority of these that I've seen, it appears as though the babbitt has lost its bond due to work hardening more than anything else.

If anyone wants to do the "CSI work" to see what actually happened here; What is left of these rods could be set up on a mandrel and checked on a rod aligner to see if they were bent or twisted.

MANY of the major vendors obtain their re-babbitted rods from the same wholesale source. New connecting rods absolutely need to be checked and verified on a rod aligner before use. In my experience, about 80% of new rods need to be "aligned" before use.

This is mostly an issue that is caused by how most of the "old-time" rod boring machines hold the large end of the T connecting rod for boring. A craftsman who has a great deal of understanding and experience at what he is doing may have a great deal of success and be able to produce many "near-perfect alignments" right off the machine, but the average "production machine operator" might struggle to make it happen or not fully understand the importance.

In either case, the importance of checking the finished rod prior to use in any engine and making any small alignment adjustments is extremely necessary.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 11:37 am:

FYI... When I say "new rods" in the above post, I am speaking about "freshly re-babbitted rods"...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ALAN FAIRCLOUGH from Houston, TEXAS on Friday, August 26, 2016 - 12:26 pm:

There should be four of those...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, August 29, 2016 - 12:36 pm:

Frank,

"Well who do you believe?? Ford Service Bulletin says at the factory,
Quote,
"The high pressure babbitt metal is poured into the UNHEATED block" "


I'm sure the guys at the plant weren't referring the Ford Service Bulletin when they were babbitting T blocks. So, I guess I'd believe the film of them actually doing it, as apparently Herm did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Monday, August 29, 2016 - 05:54 pm:

Jerry,
Yes, I wouldn't even contemplate for a second on doing a cold pour, my re-pours are a hot tub clean of the block first.

There are other references through the years in the Bulletins of factory cold pours and some brands of equipment the Ford approved of for dealership cold pours.

Got my scanner working again. Just one of them 1920


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Adam Doleshal on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 12:33 pm:

From "Ford Methods and the Ford Shops, 1914"

First operation "put cylinder on hot plate"... 17 seconds later they poured the babbitt...

Of course, this procedure may have changed a bunch of times between 1914 and the end of production.




I have also seen a picture somewhere that was supposedly taken in the Ford plant where blocks are suspended on a metal track, bearing side down, just above a furnace of molten babbitt in order to pre-heat them just prior to the babbitting operation.


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