Timer roller position at #1 TDC.

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Timer roller position at #1 TDC.
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Tuesday, August 30, 2016 - 11:18 pm:

Where is the roller (not the pin) position supposed to be at cylinder one at top dead center (or slightly after)?
I'm playing with the '18 Tin Cup Roadster... Setting the ignition timing and making ready to bend the rod to time it.
I set the black number one wire on the 10:30 spot on the Ford timer cover (North West) according to one wiring scheme and it seems it wants to be at the 7:30 position (South West) where the red number two wire is at. The roller is at the 7:30 (South West) position. I THOUGHT I put a Ford roller in it and 10 rollers line up all the same when I go to the cigar box of rollers...
I put a nice roller on the cam after clean up, slipped on the "cover/washer" to hold the pin in and ran up the nut.
I KNOW HOW to make it right (just move the 4 wires one position anti-clockwise) but are the positions correct or is something amiss/lost my mind?
I couldn't find spit on the net tonight to answer this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Azevedo on Tuesday, August 30, 2016 - 11:38 pm:

Duey,
Assuming you have #1 top dead center on compression (and not exhaust stroke), where ever the roller lines up to just starting contact (remember the cam turns counterclockwise) should be the location of the black wire contact inside the timer. It does sound weird. Other less happy possibilities are the camshaft and crank gears not timed right but that is only a worry if you have just put the engine together and not started it yet. If it's been running that will not be a problem. Another possibility is that the hole in the camshaft is improperly located. Since you have compared the roller with other ones you have eliminated the possibility that the roller is off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Keith Townsend ; ^ ) Gresham, Orygun on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 12:03 am:

Duey-
The early cams have the hole drilled all the way through the cam, so it is possible to put the roller on 180* off.

Don't ask me how I know this...
-Keith


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George Mills_Cherry Hill NJ on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 07:48 am:

Keith,

Some late cams seem to be drilled through also...

Don't ask me how I know this...
-George :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 08:50 am:

I don't know if this helps, but here it is.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 09:06 am:

I need some clarification here. 1: Is (or was) this a running engine? 2: Did you set the timing wires up without looking at the roller position? If it ran and you're on TDC compression stroke you need to change the wiring positions as it was done wrong. Perhaps some different type of cam gear puts the roller in a different position. Even a original Ford cam gear can be installed 2 ways which would change the roller's position also. Again: if it ran and you changed nothing (like the wiring) the roller position doesn't matter. It runs. Set your timing and bend the rod.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 03:41 pm:

There is a few minutes run time on this engine since rebuild 25-40 years ago.
Tighter than He!!.
I get ya Larry!
Keith. Hehe. I've heard of situ's like this... :-)

I took off a New Day timer that wouldn't seat it's brush in its holder fully (so the cover didn't seat either) and found a nice Ford setup in the piles.

Thanks guys!
Steve, that pic is a real help too! :-)
I'll fiddle with it when it cools down just a bit outside .

It'll be strange to put gas in the tank that's old yet brand spanking new.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 05:54 pm:

Perhaps I am starting to see WHY there is so little run-time on the engine in Tin Cup.

roller
Here's the roller on the TT.

roller2
Here's the roller on Tin cup. The pin is in the hole. I have the pin cover and the nut out of frame. Me thinks the cam timing is way off.
Perhaps I can learn how far off the cam timing is off by counting thru the oil fill...

NOTE: Both engines are set at number one TDC.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 06:32 pm:

A quick way to know TDC is look at the crank pulley pin, the big one inside the pulley.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 06:46 pm:

It doesn't matter which way a cam gear goes on the shaft. A cam cannot be 180 degrees out from the crank. Put a cam in 180 degrees from where you think it ought to be, then turn the crankshaft one revolution and you will be exactly where you thought you were supposed to be. Essentially, a cam is "180 out" every second revolution of the crank.

However, the roller, brush, or even an e-timer's rotating flag, or distributor shaft, MUST be in the right place in relation to the cam. Cams that are drilled thru can allow the roller or its equivalent, to be 180 degrees out from the cam.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 08:44 pm:

If both photo's engines are at TDC on #1 cylinder you have the exact situation I described above. The cam gears in these engines were placed 180 degrees apart on the cam shaft. Notice one roller is up and the other is down. 180 degrees apart. You can install the cam gear 2 ways on the shaft as long as you correctly align the timing marks on both gears the engine will run BUT the roller will also be 180 degrees out too. Pretty much what your photo's show. What's hard (for some) to understand is that with the gear in one position at TDC the #1 cyl. is on compression. Install the gear the other way and #1 at TDC is on the end of the exhaust stroke. It works either way.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 08:46 pm:

By the way: with a correctly installed/aligned set of timing gears the cam shaft is never 180 degrees out. It's exactly where it's supposed to be at all times until the teeth blow off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 10:03 pm:

"until the teeth blow off."
I had to laugh at that one Charlie! :-) That made my day! :-) :-) And I needed it!

Remember, I was looking for roller position?
Zoiks! Look at this!
We can see the key on the crank, barely make out the little Ford script on the crank gear and where is the mark on the cam gear? About 2 O-Clock (or 2:15)!
About a quarter turn "off" like I was finding. Remember the roller comparison pics this afternoon?
marks
Am I seeing this right? I believe so.
More to do tomorrow. :-/
OK, what happened? Key? OR The poor fella that put it back together? Did it come apart at all? No marks from old goop being removed IF removing the cam gear nut...
Oh it hurt to take some of this supposed rebuilt engine apart.
Nah, not any more. OLD goop on the inside of the gear cover and you guys see the gears.... I need that little camera on a wiggly thingy for other things inside. I think I could borrow one at work. :-)
"Gramma? Is it OK I put about a thousand dollars worth of radiator (and shell) in YOUR shed?" It was OK. :-)
Wake up call for Mr Impatient/Edward UNsteady hands. Slow down man. Ooh! Parts coming from Andy tomorrow evening!
If you ain't noticed, I never take myself too serious. Just muddle thru the next adventure. Thank you for the sounding board guys! You folks give so darn many little details, I could read my few threads for weeks and still glean something new. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Tomaso - Longbranch,WA on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 10:38 pm:

Rebuilt ????? No flippin way !!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Wednesday, August 31, 2016 - 11:10 pm:

No flippin way is right. New valves and pistons. Can't wait to see the bearings...


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, September 01, 2016 - 09:00 am:

You did say this engine ran. Am I correct on this? At least it's what you say in the post before the pictures. Those gears look like they haven't been touched in many years. Are you sure you've got the right markings? Crank it around and check again. Don't believe it could have run if you're correct about the marks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, September 01, 2016 - 05:11 pm:

I ASSUMED it ran.
Small discoloration on the piston tops and slight usage of the new X plugs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, September 01, 2016 - 08:50 pm:

OK, this looks better.

gears

Now the exhaust valve is open during the up-stroke instead of the down-stroke.
The timing pin is due South at #1 TDC also so the roller arm will be straight up holding the roller at about the 10:30 position.
I'm getting happier.
Looks and sounds correct. Yes?
The crank key is right there, the Ford stamp and tooth is sorta in line with the right-hand key slot and the stamped partial O in the cam gear rim is adjacent. Yes, it's all turned just a trifle too far in the pic.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Thursday, September 01, 2016 - 09:23 pm:

Uff da. What next?
See where the oil tube is?

oil tube

It was only fully plugged with sludge right there at the outlet. I cleaned it out and tested by mouth. OK. Then the air tank and gave it a blast, a little more goop and then the all clear sound.

Next up: Does the oil actually get into the pan from here?

aux oil

Sheesh, the more I look the more I think the whole affair needs to go to Andy or Dick in Kandiyohi for a couple months........
I do enjoy working on this old junk tho. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, September 01, 2016 - 10:44 pm:

DO NOT let the appearance of things (ooh it's dirty !!) cause you to open that piece of dead cow hide in your back pocket. The cam set up looks right now and your next test should be a compression check. One dry and one "wet". This will give you a real good idea of the condition of the rings and valves. Continue to ask questions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 12:53 am:

Charlie, Hehehe! You are so correct about two things again, ooh it's dirty AND a dry and wet check on compression. The cylinders are moist right now and I've got some nice compression for my thumb when re-checking things. The dirty-grungy part does not bother me bad at all. My little Lizzy (the one in my profile) is a dirty little bugger inside. Old oil goop everywhere. Thank you! You ARE correct about dirty. It'll go (as in, RUN). :-)
I've been having the notion lately that I'll have some decent compression when I'm ready to start it. Tomorrow night? Oh please. Back to the G carb and I'm ready. New float and a gas shut-off valve are ready for install thanks to Andy!
Thank you for the affirmation on cam set up! The timer roller looks better too. Arm up and holding the roller at about 9:45 or so at number 1 TDC. Rod has been bent fairly correct and I get a buzz when I want. Pun not intended. ;-)
NOTE: The books that helped train me when I was a kid always used #1 TDC as firing position not anything else... Don't ask how I got those books...
I like getting info and I like to (try to!) give correct info back. For 15 years, I helped fellas fix there equipment over the phone. It was easy since I worked on it every day.
This engine is even more fun as I haven't been inside a T engine in a long time...
Thanks for staying with me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 01:30 am:

Their equipment NOT there equipment


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Hal Davis-SE Georgia on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 04:37 am:

Charlie, I think we are saying the same thing, but I am not sure. You're not saying that if you install the cam gear 180 degrees out that you will have to move the wires 180 degrees because the roller is 180 degrees out, are you?

With the timing marks aligned, #1 will not be at TDC. It will be in the neighborhood of 45 degrees before TDC. Whether that is on compression or exhaust depends on how you put the cam gear on the cam shaft. But it won't matter because, either way, the roller will be in the proper position to fire the plugs as the pistons come up on compression (Unless you have one of the cams that got drilled all the way through).


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 07:25 am:

Roller & timer wires are correct in either position. My suggestion was to check the wiring as he seemed to think something was wrong.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 09:58 pm:

In case anyone really wants to know this, THIS is the correct "Timer roller position at #1 TDC" (firing position or a scosche after).

As I suspected. Well, I was damn close.

roller and arm

Starts up just fine with a crank for not having been run for 43 PLUS years...
It rattles some.
Questions? Just holler.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Duey_C on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 11:45 pm:

I still have not done a compression check Charlie. :-) What fer? It's got some... :-)
I have this T running. Pretty easy to start up. I have to twist its tail. IF you know what that means.... With this body I live in, that means "Oof" but i get it done. Then ZOOM! Or some-such as I'm really nice to a new engine. It picks 'em off real nice, even revved up!
My dear ol' Lizzy waits for points and condenser to straighten him out. He's got a dizzy.
Used coils from a coil box for Tin Cup, given a little love and it runs real nice. Anxious for GOOD (set up) coils to see any differences...
:-) Get it?


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