Engine popping

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Engine popping
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 03:08 pm:

I don't care for this new development, intermittent popping from the exhaust from my 1915. It happens both at idle and when driving. I've done a Google search and read all manner of theories and speculation on the subject, so I'm hoping somebody who has solved this can suggest the most likely things to check. I did try carb adjustment, and that didn't seem to affect it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tom VanMeeteren Valley, Nebraska on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 03:18 pm:

Sticky exhaust valve?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Seth - Ohio on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 03:21 pm:

My timer came loose one time and caused issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By ALAN FAIRCLOUGH from Houston, TEXAS on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 04:48 pm:

Mine does that too... Hate the idea of sticky valves.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 05:46 pm:

Sounds as if the fuel mixture is going through the exhaust valve and being fired as it passes through the manifold. It is either an exhaust valve sticking or misfiring on one cylinder due to an ignition problem. You could try some Marvel Mystery oil in the fuel and see if it helps. Otherwise, you need to trace the ignition system by starting with the timer and coil box and coils and spark plugs as well as the wiring. If it seems to happen only when the spark lever is in a certain position, you might have a coil wire grounding only when the lever is in that position. That is why I like to have 3 cars. If I have one which is running good, I can substitute ignition parts to the other one and see if it cures the problem, then try the parts from the faulty car on the good running car and see if I can reproduce the problem.

If the misfiring tends to happen mostly when pulling hard such as when you first shift into high or pulling a hill, you might have an ignition problem when the compression is higher with open throttle.

Anyway, you have a difficult to find problem, but I'm sure you will find it.
Norm
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By jeff cordes on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 06:45 pm:

Burned valves?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 06:52 pm:

It's a valve issue. Burned, sticking, whatever.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 07:15 pm:

Or too much corn in the fuel??? Pop-corn that is?
I know, too corny. sorry!
I'd hope for ignition problems first, but does sound like valves.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 08:32 pm:

Leaky gland rings? Loose exhaust pipe nut?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 09:08 pm:

Easy stuff first: Timer had lots of wear between contacts, making me suspect a bouncing brush. Sanded it flat. No change. Fuel starvation? Switched carbs. Still popping. Next: Compression check.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 09:14 pm:

Loose wiring connection somewhere. Coil dancing up and down in coilboxes.Bad coil. Firing late for some reason. If you think it's valve sticking, oil in cylinders, crank kg over,check again know morning


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Friday, September 02, 2016 - 09:15 pm:

Damn sPELLCheck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 09:41 am:

Weak or broken exhaust valve spring? Valve retaining pin out of position or worn through?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 10:23 am:

Now this is getting irksome. Checked compression, engine warm. About 40 on all four. While the plugs were out, laid them on the head and got steady spark on all four. When removing plugs I noticed that #4 came out pretty easily, so thought that maybe it had been loose enough to lose compression. Nope. Plugs back in tightly and engine running, it still pops. The popping is intermittent and happens both at idle and when driving. Next?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Garrison - Rice Minnesota on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 10:36 am:

Start it tonight after dark and look for spark jumping.

Stop mixing the bad "shine" in with the fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 10:38 am:

Steve: Check your coils for .030 gap between compressed cushion spring contact and vibrator contact. I'm thinking you have one with gap less than .030"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 11:10 am:

Door shut, lights out, no spark jumping.

Same fuel as always.

Replaced all coils, one at a time, with the spare. No change.

Replaced all four coils with the four out of the touring. No change.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 11:14 am:

Steve, did you check to see if you could have a leaking intake manifold?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan McEachern on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 11:15 am:

Steve- if its an intermittent sticking valve, put some Marvel Mystery Oil or just plain engine oil in the gas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 11:28 am:

I second Dan's comment - if you don't want to remove the valve covers to check the springs, try the Marvel Mystery Oil in the gas. Since it's a fresh engine, perhaps the clearance on one exhaust valve guide is a little tight and the MMO will be enough to keep it freed up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 11:35 am:

Engine running, I sprayed ether where the intake manifold meets the block. That slowed the engine considerably. Apparently there's a leak around the manifold. When it cools off I'll reinstall. Maybe this explains the slow starting when the engine is cold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 11:41 am:

It is sounding like a valve sticking. But, just for kicks, Change the timer roller. Had this happen and that's what fixed it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 11:47 am:

Ether slowed it?? Ive had them speed up from ether. Oil slowed down. Odd. Manifolds must have needed retorquing. Hope that is it. Want some more videos!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 11:49 am:

Jim, see my timer note from last night at 9:08.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Les VonNordheim on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 12:37 pm:

By pass the coil box switch just to make sure that it does not have an intermittent problem. I had missing problems and it turned out to be a faulty switch.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sullivan on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 12:48 pm:

Broken valve spring? Dave in Bellingham, WA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 12:52 pm:

A '15-type switch acting up on both bat and Mag is a long shot. Saw you sanded timer at 9:08.I would change the whole timer on principle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 12:57 pm:

Wait a minute. Sanded timer flat?? Is this some damn New Day type abortion on there??? No wonder!!!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 03:43 pm:

Original New Day is excellent if you have a good brush and the inside surface is flat.



In this case it appears the timer is irrelevant. The engine bogging down when I sprayed ether around the intake manifold suggests that the guys suspecting a leak were onto something. We'll find out when I get the manifolds reinstalled and start it up.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 04:08 pm:

Original New Day or Turner 2-in-1 or '60s'-??s repop has meant to me New Day, new battle. They seem to get some sort of an erratic short/crosstalking/brush or contact material smearing problem similarem to carbon tracking. There is no doubt you have a leaky intake,but the word development implies this started suddenly/gradually.If it were sucking so much air as to cause lean mixture problems that would go away when you changed the mixture.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 04:13 pm:

Actually not Jim. If one intake gland is leaking when you richen the mixture to fix that pair of cylinders you have then made the non - leaking pair of cylinders too rich.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 04:30 pm:

Royce,quite true. But it should change SOMETHING about the way it is running an go into a 'help, I'm too rich'rolling cadence rather than popping.Also,no offence intended, but if I had ever seen any of my techs using ether to find a vacuum leak on a running engine I would have had a wild, cussing, screaming fit- they would have heard me crosstown. The bogging down may be caused by that dry ether getting sucked into the cylinders and washing the oil off about sticking the pistons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 04:39 pm:

And while I'm on a rant, I don't want to see anybody get turned into a skinless Frank from igniting a cloud of flammable ether. One spark.... Don't believe me, spray some in a garbage bag, light a long (!!)toilet paper fuse, and run. MUCH more of a miniature Hiroshima than hairspray.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 05:44 pm:

I'm here to learn. What should be used for that test rather than ether?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 05:49 pm:

This'll seem "far-fetched" Steve, and this was not on a "T", but a more modern engine, but this really happened:

Had an intermittent "miss" in an engine (or actually, more like a dead cylinder) and it turned out to be a broken valve spring. Should be an easy problem to identify, right? Well,....not so easy. Here's the almost unbelievable part:

A lot more investigation/diagnosis developed that the problem was "intermittent" for the simple reason the even tho' the spring was broken completely (kind of a "slanted" break) at one of the nearly center coils, somehow, that darn spring would "arrange" itself back in place with the slanted broken ends sort of "hung-up" on each other while the engine was running, (and running quite normally at THAT time of course) and because the springs were all very oily, it was nearly impossible to see that one of them was broken. Of course, whenever I had the valve cover off to inspect (with and without the engine running) the spring had arranged itself to perform perfectly normally and the sort of "slanted" break was impossible to see. ,,,,'bout drove me crazy finding that one, and I guess that's why I still remember it so vividly, even tho' it was years ago. Anyway, jus' think'n out loud Steve,.....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 06:14 pm:

Steve, I would drop oil around the intake gaskets thicker the better. Temporarily get sucked in, sealing the gap. And yeah, I used ether in Ag. mechanics class in HS.
Teacher went apes@@@.
Harold,you could have something there. Had a Wisconsin one cylinder air cooled that did that on our farm elevator. Corn harvest, one row picker,zero out, great fun.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 06:22 pm:

Steve,

I use WD-40. It makes the engine speed up when it is sucked in.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Osterman on Saturday, September 03, 2016 - 09:00 pm:

Had the same problem when I reinstalled my carburetor after the aluminum intake developed a crack that needed welding. In my case a stud for the manifold clamp was stripped preventing clamping down the manifold enough. Replaced the stud .... running like a top.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 12:13 am:

Why try anything else? You hit it with spray and got a reaction where there should have been none. While I don't think repairing the leak will fix your popping problem the running lean/sucking air could have caused a valve to burn.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kevin Weeds on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 01:47 am:

My 27 Coupe does the same, runs a vaporizer carb. Very noticeable popping. It's always done it at idle but runs like a charm on the road. Might try some of these suggestions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 02:34 pm:

Steve---got her smoothed out yet?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 04:14 pm:

Much improved, thanks. We just got back from a run to town (eleven miles round trip) and the steady but irregular popping has been reduced to an occasional little bup. After our last exciting episode I pulled off the manifolds and found that not only was the intake sucking air, but soot at the bottom of the exhaust showed it had been leaking too. So I cleaned everything up and put the manifolds back on with new gaskets and high temp RTV, tightened the nuts, and let it sit overnight. Today I cranked it up and tried the WD-40 test. That had no effect on the running.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 04:22 pm:

Great thread, although a little confusing for a Newbee. I fear having to ever remove the manifolds because I have broken bolts on other engines when removing them.

What is the proper procedure for backing out the bolts that hold the manifolds in place without breaking them?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 04:35 pm:


They're studs. They stay in when you remove the nuts and take off the manifolds. I use brass nuts so they won't rust on.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 05:29 pm:

Glad you got that sorted out. I'm still surprised changing mixture adjustment had no effect on it. But, these vaguearies are part of the damn things.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 06:41 pm:



These look like bolts to me. One has a standard hex head, the others are hex but the top is crowned instead of flat.

Are these nuts on top of studs?

If they are bolts, what would be the best way to remove them without breaking them?

Thanks.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:08 pm:

ttnewbee-looks like someone used valve cover bolts on the manifolds. Early cars used studs for the valve covers, but around the time they went to the one piece covers bolted were used. Common to find this. One with convex head is from '26-7 enginew. Soak them with penetrating oil.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 08:20 pm:

I would suggest that you check the torque on the nuts again. They tend to loosen up as the engine heats up, very similarly to head bolts. If you tighten again, you will probably not experience any more leaks.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 08:27 pm:

When you said popping from the exhaust I believe some of us, myself included, assumed you meant out the tail pipe. If you said it was from under the hood I believe you'd have gotten some very different answers to a very different problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 08:51 pm:

I agree with Charlie. Popping back through the intake is a classic sign of a lean mixture or sticking intake valve. Popping out the exhaust is a classic sign of a way-over-rich mixture (igniting in the muffler or tailpipe) or a sticking exhaust valve.

The occasional little "bup" tells me that your cruise mixture may still be a smidge lean, if it occurs again try richening the mixture 1/16 turn and see if the "bupping" stops.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Terry Horlick in Penn Valley, CA on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:09 am:

Steve, my fresh engine did the same to me a few days ago. Running up the hill to town it started bucking and snorting... popping as you describe. I went in to an appointment I had and came out and found one coil was not firing so I swapped in a spare coil I carry. Ran well for a few blocks then died stone dead in traffic. Had to get a huge RV to move so I could roll downhill out of traffic to investigate.

I found the engine firing at odd places instead of the two well defined spots I had set it to (see my posts about setting the Anderson Timer). Now is when my smug faith in the ANCO timer gets me in to trouble... misfiring and no spare timer or flapper. It's been almost 20 years since I had a real timer malfunction and I had to be smug in that post, undoubtedly bringing this on.

Since the car wouldn't run (that popping had progressed) I had time to sit in the hot sun and think. Amazingly I came up with the correct answer... my coil box cover has four little springs built into the inside to push the coils down against the contacts. Over the last 89 years those springs had weakened collapsing a bit. That allowed them to elongate towards the posts holding the points in place. These little springs are grounded through the box lid and they would ground out the coil whenever the spring touched a post.

This resulted in an intermittent (and hard to find) short making the coil buzz... independent of timer and cam position. This short produced the popping out my muffler as when a cylinder failed to ignite it's fuel mixture found it's way to the exhaust manifold.

I re-curved the cover springs and was off to the races again... for almost a day. Then it was popping again. I then removed the cover... right now I am running fine with no coil box cover. I need to address that cover with a permanent fix.

Just something to check... I strongly recommend pitching that New Day timer and get a Mr. T's timer (ANCO, Dollar Advertiser, Anderson style). You will have to reset your commutator rod length and then will be set for 10-20 years. Oh, yes, I used the Steve Jelf method of setting commutator rod length and it works just fine on the ANCO timer.

TH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 09:29 am:

Great you've found the problem, Steve :-)

Jim - ether isn't any miracle degreaser that'll magically remove all oil from the cylinders - I'd say that's a myth. I have used ether for intake leak testing for many years and also as start help for stubborn engines without any noticeable problems. Only caution is to only use it on a just started cold engine when the exhaust manifold is close by as on a T engine :-)
(But for me the engine usually races when there's a leak?)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Tuesday, September 06, 2016 - 10:20 pm:

Update and confession. As carburetor adjustment didn't seem to affect the occasional bup, and just in case the sticking valve theory might be correct, I decided to gamble $4.20 on a bottle of snake oil (MMM). I dumped a little over 1 oz. per gallon into the tank to see if it would make any difference. After about twelve miles to town and back today, and an evening cruise of another ten miles or so, when I started the car a few minutes ago it ran very well, with only an occasional little burp, even less than I was getting yesterday. Is that because of good carburetor adjustment, or the magic elixir? I don't know, but I'll use the rest of the bottle just in case it's helping. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Craig Anderson, central Wisconsin on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 12:37 am:

HOLY COW Steve........you MUST have been desperate to spend that much money....... :-O ........ LOL
I always add MMO to the T gas....... ;)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 01:48 am:

Steve !! 1oz per gallon ??? Mix is 4 oz per 10 gallons. I find my T doesn't like 4 per 10.well Kal gas anyway I do 2/3 per 10 gallons.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 08:04 am:

And so we move from solid diagnosis and repair into the land of dreams and I guess.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 08:11 am:

Hey Charlie,,, at least he didn't have to get into the engine physically... added the magic elixr to a '25 coupe, smoked like hell but ran smooth after 40 minutes or so..... I did use a bit more MMO but the exhaust smelled better ????? LOL


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 08:16 am:

After you've done all the solid diagnosis and repair you know, then... :-)

Actually, I seriously doubt a sticking valve in an engine with only a couple thousand miles on it. But I also doubt that the MMO will do any damage.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bob Jablonski on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 08:20 am:

Steve; Always question the quality of the gas..... The stuff at the pump has a short useful "life" before problems rear their ugly heads. Gas stored in containers at the garage will go bad, not good for lawnmowers or other small engines let alone any vehicle.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mike Walker, NW AR on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 08:24 am:

I too use 2 oz. of MMO with each fill up. Several years ago I had a pesky sticking float needle in the carb and began adding the snake oil then. I've used it ever since, and that problem has never returned. Say what you want, I'm a believer.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 09:37 am:

Steve- It's the fresh rebuilds that can be more prone to sticking issues since they're tighter everywhere :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Verne Shirk on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 02:57 pm:

I'm with Mike W. Use it in all my vintage cars. I've had valve problems in the past on a 2-cyl Buick and old flathead V-8s. MMO took care of the valve issues.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 03:35 pm:

OK, here's the latest installment in the ongoing saga.

In today's trip to town and in other recent driving, the frequent popping has apparently been solved by the new manifold gaskets. The WD-40 test has no effect. But that less frequent little bup persists, and the car lacks its normal zip. So with the engine running I grounded all the plugs again. Numbers 1, 3, and 4 noticeably slowed the engine. Number 2 seemed to slow it slightly. I switched coils 1 and 2. #2 remained the weak cylinder. Then I tried three different plugs in #2. No change. Still running weak. Next was a compression check of #1 and #2. Both showed a little over 40 pounds. So that's where we stand now. The car seems to be running on 3 cylinders, with #2 being the weak one.

So what's going on here? Is #2 getting full compression on the upstroke but leaking it out before it can fire? Is there something else I'm missing?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 03:51 pm:

I also like 2 cycle oil. Modern gas is very dry. Steve, you remind me of my painfully Scotch father. A short time after moving into their new house, the dishwasher developed an odor. I told him about the Tang orange drink mix.You dump a large jar in, put it on rinse hold and let it run. He had heard of it, too. But he was deaf to the whole jar part. I was stopping to pick up a couple things for them anyway and got them some. When I got there he already had the dishwasher going. He grabbed the Tang and carefully measured out tiny spoonful and threw it in. "THERE, BY GOD!" he announced. I told him that tiny dab wasn't going to do sh## and proceeded to dump the whole jar in.The reaction was typical. References to the diety,couldn't we have tried a smaller amount first, and great depression and other stories of great hardship. But their damn dishwasher smelled good. Being frugal is, no doubt, how to die wealthy.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 03:52 pm:

An occasional "bup" sounds like it's running slightly lean. Now that your vacuum leak is fixed, have you tried adjusting the mixture to find a new "sweet spot"?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 03:55 pm:

And I'm not going to suggest changing the whole timer to another known good one. Noooo......hell, noooooo.........


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 03:59 pm:

Also, when you sand those damn New Day style timers, I am convinced you make trails of semi conducting metal from one segment to the next. But, that's just me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Fred Miller, Sequim WA on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 04:13 pm:

TT Newbie:

The manifold clamp bolts that you showed in your photos are correct for the later 1926 TTs and cars. These bolts replaced the older stud-nut setup.

MAY 25 1926 Engine production records, Ford Archives
Began using bolt instead of studs for manifolds.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 05:30 pm:

Mark, that's what I thought too. Adjustment didn't stop it.

Jim, you'll be happy to know I took off the hated New Day and put on a new Tiger fresh out of the box. I'm sorry to say it made absolutely no difference. Shorting out plug #2 still makes little or no difference in how the engine runs.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By tt newbee on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 05:51 pm:

Fred Miller - Thanks.

Here is advice I received from another member of the forum. I hope he doesn't mind my posting it, but for us newbies this is the type of info we come to the forum for:

"The '26-'27 cars used bolts and that is what you have. One is a crowned original and the other is a replacement. They can be hard to remove but soaking them with a solution of 50% acetone and 50% automatic transmission fluid should work but you have to be sure you are getting it down into the threads. Soak it for several days, don't rush it. Next, tap,the head of each bolt with a decent size hammer to break things up but dont whack it hard. A lot of light hits is better. At this point try to remove the bolt using a short handle box wrench rather than a ratchet so you can't get too much leverage. Be sure to support the wrench over the nut with one hand while you twist with the other so you dont put any sideways pressure on the bolt. If that does not work go back to soaking again and keep repeating it until it does. Believe me it is a lot easier to be patient than it is to remove a bolt that has broken off in the block. There is another method that has always worked for me when removing studs and that is to heat the stud, or in your case the bolt. As close to the block as you can without getting the block too hot. Getting the stud/bolt a dull red is just right (do it with the lights off to be able to see when it is dull red). Then immediately remove the heat and touch a candle to the hot stud/bolt right where it meets the block. The wax will melt and get drawn into the threads and lubricate them. I have never had a stud or bolt that I could not remove using that method even though it is clearly an old time method. For future reference a good stud remover is handy to have and it is best to apply it as close to the block as possible to minimize the chances of snapping the stud or bolt off. Good luck and happy motoring!"

I realize this is basic common sense to most who post on this forum. I once broke an exhaust manifold bolt on a '51 flathead 8. What a pain that was in the long run. But I feel now at I only need patience and I can remove manifold bolts with no problems.

Thanks again to the forum, you're GREAT!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 05:53 pm:

Since the compression in #2 is good, and adjusting the mixture didn't help, I'm betting it's an electrical issue unique to cylinder #2. Since you've already eliminated the coils and timer, about the only thing left is the coil box itself or the #2 primary and secondary wiring and connections.

Let us know what you find, and good luck! :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Larry Bohlen, Severn MD on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 05:59 pm:

Change the plug on #2.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 06:10 pm:

Please give the numbers for all the cylinders. Where is the noise coming from when it happen?. Out the tail pipe or under the hood? in other words intake or exhaust. If it's out the tail pipe it's an intermittently sticking/not seating exhaust valve. Under the hood/intake manifold? It's an intake valve. If either is true I believe the valve doesn't fail to seat at the low cranking speed used in compression testing. Dump whatever you want into the tank if it ain't fresh fuel it's cr*p.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 06:21 pm:

Sorry, Steve, I missed that. And I probably missed this, too. Make a jumper wire to bypass the timer/coilbox harness. Bad wiring happens.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 06:30 pm:

Yep, I missed that suggestion. One of my T friends that is more sophisticated than I made a plate about 3/8".thick with a nipple on it. Goes between carburetor and intake for vacuum gauge. Linkage still works. I've never used anything like this on a T but that should show if this is valve related.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 07:14 pm:

And this has probably been discussed too. Not having fought the battle for awhile I am rusty at this. I made it a habit to occasionally take a nut driver and turn all the nuts on the coilbox back and forth to 'scrub' the connection.Likewise the timer.Just a thought.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Sullivan on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 07:50 pm:

J'ever look at them valve springs? Dave in Bellingham, WA


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By James A. Golden on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 08:06 pm:

Do a close inspection of your exhaust system.

Any small crack that can let in fresh air will allow unburned gas to ignite and make that popping sound.

If a cylinder misfires and dumps the raw gas in the exhaust manifold, the next cylinder to fire will set off that gas.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 08:17 pm:

I think you ought to try a different intake manifold Steve. All the easy stuff checks good already.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 09:44 pm:

Royce may be on this one now.

Fella on the Finger Lakes Tour had similar issue with poor running.

Checked all the usual suspects, 'til he spied this crack in the intake that was causing the grief!


Old age crack in the intake manifold responsible for the missing.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 10:37 pm:

Spraying currently has no effect on the manifolds/engine performance.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 10:42 pm:

Steve, is it possible you might have a bad plug wire on #2? How old are your plug wires?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 10:47 pm:

Or maybe that weak cyl. isn't getting the same/correct amount of fuel as the others.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 12:13 am:

If my digital camera wasn't in the shop for repairs I'd show you a picture of this. When the pushers go down the valve stems go down with them. Except #2 exhaust. It remains about " above the lowered pusher, with the spring retainer sitting at about a 15 angle. A leaking exhaust valve seems to be the problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:31 am:

Perhaps the valve guide is a little tight ??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:51 am:

Watching the valves move as I turn the crank, I find that the lifter on #2 exhaust is much lower than the others, making that " gap when the lifter is down and the valve is closed. I assume this means the valve isn't opening fully when the lifter is raised. When the lifter is down just the very top of it, maybe the top 1/16" or less, is visible, and it has that " of space above it. I've never done any adjustment on these things before. What's the procedure for getting the top of that that lifter up where it belongs?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By George n LakeOzark,Missourah on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:55 am:

Adjustable lifters


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Michael Deichmann, Blistrup, Denmark on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:05 am:

Now I would remove the inspection cover and take a look on the cam....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:57 am:

As Michael says, sounds like worn out camshaft. Obviously in all this verbage, I'm getting lost. I somehow got the impression this is a freshened engine. Is that incorrect??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 08:29 am:

So the weak sister was getting enough fuel just couldn't get rid of it. Looks like the cam is possibly going bye-bye.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 08:50 am:

The speedometer has been cleared a couple of times, but I estimate mileage at around 2000 miles since this engine was rebuilt and the adjustable lifters were installed.

So in 2000 miles one lobe of the cam has worn down by a quarter inch all the way around, while all seven of the others are right where they were? You can list me as a skeptic on that one. It seems far more likely to me that the one adjustable lifter has somehow become unadjusted. That's why I'm asking how to adjust it.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 08:54 am:

So sorry to hear that, Steve. Pull that lifter up and see if its top threaded portion is adjusted up similar to the others. Look at Mike's video on lifter adjustment here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0JFSrB95Xs&list=PLYG_lIhIwKyLG8WQm4tGmKK1nA0Yct p6G&index=32

You can try to adjust the lifter up with some small wrenches or the wrench set that the vendors provide, but if the cam lobe is worn out the only recourse is to replace the camshaft. :-(


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 08:58 am:

Hopefully you're right, it's happened for me too that adjustable lifters had to be readjusted.

You'll have to do the adjustment with the cam positioned so the lifter is lifted, then turn the engine so it rests on the heel of the cam to check if you got it right - repeat as necessary :-)

If you know the pitch of the thread it's easier, then you can anticipate how much of a turn is needed to get it about right..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 09:21 am:

Thread on adjustable lifter thread pitch:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/29/29384.html?1179109985


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 09:31 am:

Mike's videos, of course! I should have thought of that.

Watching Mike do the adjustment, I see how. But this one lifter is so far down I can't get even one wrench on it, let alone two, unless I turn the engine to where the cam has it up as far as it will go. If wrenches will reach all the other lifters when they're down, but not this one, that suggests to me that: 1 Just one lobe has worn down a quarter inch in 2000 miles (mighty unlikely); 2 The bottom of the lifter has broken off (more likely?); 3 Something else I haven't thought of. In any case, it looks like I need to pull the inspection cover off the bottom and take a look.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 09:43 am:

Steve, I sent you a PM, please check your email. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:06 am:

I guessed right. The disk part of the lifter, which rides on the cam lobe, is mostly gone. Now I'm wondering what would cause that. All the others look normal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:17 am:

Others have experienced the same failure with new parts - apparently (according to Herm Konhke 15 years ago) there were two producers of adjustable lifters, one good and one not so good. I wonder who sells the good lifters and who sells the others, and how to identify them?
http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/647721.html?1464905739


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:22 am:

Too bad somebody doesn't make a lifter with a screw-on foot so that you could replace just that one lifter without having to pull the camshaft.

Hmm, maybe buy a few new lifters and make one? :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:32 am:

Unfortunately, you need to remove the camshaft to fix that, but if you remove the radiator, you might be able to do it without pulling the whole engine. You will have to remove the valve springs and put the lifters up all the way and hold in place with something like a clothes pin. Then pull out the camshaft and replace the lifter or lifters with the problem. While it's out, be sure to check the lobe on the camshaft for wear. Hopefully, all the wear is on the lifter.

Now the uncertainty: If one lifter wore out rapidly, what about the others? Was it just a defect in the one lifter or are they all soft?

Sorry about your problem. Hope it will work out for you and your car.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:42 am:

That is why I like the non adjustable original style lifters better Steve. They don't ever have a problem. Sure, you have to grind each valve stem to get the appropriate clearance. In the long run it is cheaper and time well spent.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Ken Todd, ............Red Deer, Alberta on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:50 am:

Good to hear that you found the problem.

"The disk part of the lifter, which rides on the cam lobe, is mostly gone."

Did you find the missing pieces? maybe in the transmission screen?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Semprez-Templeton, CA on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:52 am:

I seem to remember a post about blending various brands/viscosity oil. I wonder if this is could be a lubrication issue?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 12:20 pm:

It's bad heat treat on that lifter. Has happened several times in the past. Poor quality control on the part of the supplier/manufacturer.

Ken,

The missing pieces are just dust. It didn't break, it just wore away. At least that's been the mode of failure in the cases that I've seen.

Royce,

Whether it's a solid lifter or an adjustable one, bad heat treat will always result in this mode of failure.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:01 pm:

Great, Steve. Plus you had the thrill of having multiple problems contributing to similar symptoms. I would have never guessed based on engine sound from your video their was any wide valvetrain clearance issues.That must have worn FAST after it broke through the hardface.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:19 pm:

No little chunks came out with the oil. I think Jerry is right. The missing material was probably the source of a lot of the ferrous fuzz on the screen magnet when I changed oil.

John, if that were the problem I think it would affect more than one lifter.

In digging in I've run into a bit of a snag. I've removed the cap screws and bolts shown in Figure 267 and the top of the cover is loose enough to flop back and forth. Paragraph 455 says I should be able to just lift off the cover, but it seems pretty solidly stuck in place at the bottom. I've tried prying it up a little with a screwdriver, but if there's something besides RTV holding it I don't want to pry hard enough to break it. I don't have a spare.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 01:49 pm:

You need to remove the pulley.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By David Dewey, N. California on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:15 pm:

Wow, at this point I'm thinking engine pull time. If one liter is that bad, how bad are the others? Yes, you might have gotten only one bad lifter in a set, but what are the odds of that? And now I'd want to make certain nothing else is floating around in the engine either!
Sorry Steve, sounding like a winter project time! Or at least Fall.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:30 pm:

Hopefully Mr Frugal has a set of good used Ford lifters from an extra engine. It doesn't take long to grind a set if you have a good Sioux valve grinder.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:44 pm:

The Bible shows the cover being removed with the pulley in place. Apparently that's one of the differences between starter and non-starter cars. The engine will have to be out and the pan removed just to get a puller on the pulley. Oh, well. The car hasn't wanted to start on mag since I replaced that bad reverse drum, so this will be a chance to check into that and correct whatever I did wrong in that department.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:51 pm:

So sorry to hear about this, Steve.

Royce, can you elaborate on why the crank pulley has to come off? Sorry, but it isn't obvious to me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Steve Jelf, Parkerfield KS on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:56 pm:

I think I can answer that one. The cover won't lean forward enough to clear the cam shaft with the pulley in place. The pulley has to be out of the way for the bottom of the cover to slide forward. I've removed the cover on a starter car with the pulley in place, but it's not happening on this non-starter car.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 02:59 pm:

Ok, thanks Steve. Good luck with the rest of the teardown.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 04:20 pm:

I had a pulley that needed a puller to get it off, but I didn't have to pull the pan - I could place a puller slightly angled and still get enough force to pull it :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 04:28 pm:

And a needle-nose pan doesn't help, for getting the pulley off, either.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 05:15 pm:

The pulley comes right off no problem once you remove the pin. The early pan doesn't interfere in any way. You don't need a puller. A pair of large screwdrivers will work so long as it is not rusted in place. Since Steve just assembled the engine I doubt that is the case.


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