Oil in valve spring area

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Oil in valve spring area
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 01:44 am:

I had some smoke fumes puffing out of the throttle rod hole under the manifolds that seemed to be getting worse as of late and an ongoing coolant leak so i decided to pull the head because I thought it might be the head gasket and ordered a new one (the leak turned out to be a continuing problem from a previous repair), but I was wondering if there should be this much oil puddling at the bottom of the valve springs? and if this looks like an excessive amount of carbon soot under the head? I am going to clean it up for the new gasket, but was wondering if it is normal


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 03:31 am:

Drain holes that allow oil to drain back into crankcase are probably plugged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Wayne Sheldon, Grass Valley, CA on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 04:29 am:

Probably what Harold says on the drain holes. I am a bit concerned about your exhaust valves. Numbers 1 & 2 look a little sooty. May indicate running too rich. Number 3 looks okay, but 4 looks like it may have been running a bit hot (could mean running too lean).
A likely cause for this could have been an intake leak at the rear of the intake manifold. Be certain to seal the intake ports well when you put it together.

It looks like you are running '26/'27 coil box, and I would imagine a timer? What kind? Something else that can cause uneven firing is if the timer is not properly centered in front of the camshaft. How much of an effect that has varies with different types of timers. While you are working on it, you should check the front cover centering for the timer.

You don't say what the "previous repair" was? But how are the rings etc? Simple blow-by will cause smoke to blow out the throttle rod passageway, and can push oil up passed the lifters to overfill the valve chamber.
Good luck, and have fun! W2


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Warren on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 08:08 am:

As Wayne said blow-by will cause smoke to blow out the valve cover, also using the brakes hard will cause smoke to come out the valve cover. If the engine smokes when you throttle up after going against compression, oil is traveling up your valve stems. This can be caused by the block retaining oil and of course valve guide ware. When I rebuild and engine, I drill a few more drain back holes to cause more oil flow in both directions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Charlie B actually in Toms River N.J. on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 08:34 am:

Of course you didn't mention a compression test so I assume none was done and we have no real idea as to the ring and valves condition. Looking & knowing. Two different animals.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:56 am:

It's a '26 touring and I have an anderson style timer. The previous repair was a broken manifold stud that was improperly drilled out causing a leak into the water jacket, I thought I had it sealed, but it is still dripping. I thought it might be the head gasket so I pulled the head to take a look see at the valves while awaiting a new gasket and this is what I found so I was wondering if it was normal. I will clean out the return holes and check the valves a little closer and clean it up a bit while I have the head off. I did a compression test a few days ago,the first 3 cylinders were 30 and the 4th was 35.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 07:40 am:

30 and 35 is a little low.. Did you check if it improved with a little oil through the spark plug holes?
If it did, the main problem would be worn cylinders /rings, if no change it would be valves.
But I would have changed rings and ground the valves anyway, since the head is off..


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 04:12 pm:

I think it might be time to rebuild the engine, or at least put in new rings and grind the valves. The compression should be over 40 and all approximately the same.

If that carbon on the valves is oily, you are burning oil Carbon from a rich mixture would be dry and sooty. You could also as mentioned above have an intake leak at the rear port. That would cause cylinders 3 & 4 to run leaner than 1 & 2.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 02:16 am:

there does not appear to be any oil on tops of the piston areas or the underside of the head, it is mostly black powdery soot. How much of a problem would replacing the rings be while in the car? Also, when I got the car about 10 or so years ago, one of the first things that I remember doing was to replace the valves with stainless steel ones, I should have installed adjustable lifters but did not. Is it a major problem changing the valve guides to tighten them up a bit? I will get a better look at them tomorrow evening.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 08:32 am:

Good to also clean the Oil Breather screen. Many T'ers think the oil cap is like modern sealed cap, but the cap provides vent to crankcase. Don't let the screen inside the cap get clogged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 12:30 pm:

Dennis,

Use just plain water for coolant for a while and see if your drip doesn't close up with rust & calcium. Unless it's really dripping fast, this might be the easiest thing to try.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 01:08 pm:

I installed a new thread sert coated with jb weld and am hoping that will solve the leak from the manifold stud and will remove the valves while i have it apart hopefully tonight.this is what the underside of the head looks like with soot.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 02:09 pm:

Dennis,

You might want to consider using a copper head gasket when you put this back together. Looks like the style you were using was leaking. Might also think about getting the head resurfaced at an automotive machine shop.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Wednesday, September 07, 2016 - 10:50 pm:

Got them out, all of them seemed to have a little side to side play while in the guides without the springs, maybe 1/16", is that normal?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 05:46 am:

1/16" sounds excessive, maybe your guides needs to be reamed oversize with new OD valves..
I've heard about a rough test if the valve guide clearance is OK or not is to hold the finger tight under the valve guide with the valve loose in the guide, lightly oiled. Pull the valve straight up - if you hear a distinct "plop", the guide and valve is good enough, no plop means it's too much clearance.

Sounds like the more you pull down the engine, the more of a full rebuild it'll be :-)

Replacing the rings in the car should be doable, you just have to pull the inspection plate in the pan and use a lot of denatured alcohol when honing the cylinders to wash off debris from the process.. Remember to measure the end distance of the old rings first as far down in the cylinders as they'll go, and then up at the top since the cylinders are worn conical (and oval),
That'll tell you if you can fit new slightly OD rings or if the cylinders are so worn that reboring might be needed?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:02 am:

Dennis,

Have you considered having your engine professionally rebuilt? Honestly, in the long run you'll be thankful that you did.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 05:25 pm:

I have a new copper/silicone gasket on the way, a pro rebuild is out of the question, so I have to deal with these things one at a time. admittedly, I should never have tore the engine down to replace the ring gear in the first place as it has cost me a whole season of being able to drive the car (and the season is short to begin with here in NY LOL) plus all of this aggravation and expense (what I thought would be a 50 dollar ring gear replacement, has cost me over 600 bucks and climbing so far), hopefully,I can just work through this stuff and get her running half way decent to putter around the hood, which is the main driving I do with her, nothing earth shattering! If nothing else, I have and am learning quite a bit from you guys on the forum!!!! Thank's


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 09:54 pm:

Does anyone know what size drill bit would be the same size diameter as the 1/64 oversize reamer would be?
I want to see if it would fit in the valve guide to determine if I should try oversize valves?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Donald Conklin on Thursday, September 08, 2016 - 11:46 pm:

If the thought is to use oversize valve stems in the original valve guide holes I can almost guarantee it won't work. The guides won't be worn that much all the way thru.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, September 09, 2016 - 12:15 am:

It was more of a thought to measure just how close the existing guides are and make sure it would be worth the additional cost of oversized valves and reamer, the reamer alone is over half the cost of a new set of valves, just wanted to make sure it would work in this case.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 03:07 pm:

If I decide to purchase a reamer and over sized valves can anyone tell me if I will have to move the engine forward to get at the last valve guide on this '26 touring car?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Roger Karlsson, southern Sweden on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 05:10 pm:

Maybe you can borrow or buy a used reamer?

On a 26 it's not enough room to use the standard tool for turning the reamer in the rearmost valve guide or the valve seat reamers you need afterwards, but you may turn it with some other solution, like an adjustable wrench?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By bob middleton on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 09:58 pm:

Right or wrong I have enlarged the drain hole in my valve chambers two sizes up from the bit that fit
I also camferrred the top of the hole just a little


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, September 10, 2016 - 10:33 pm:

if the valve guides are reamed,do the valve seats have to be re cut also?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Frank van Ekeren (Australia) on Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 12:23 am:

Yes.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Gregush Portland Oregon on Sunday, September 11, 2016 - 10:40 am:

If you have things taken this far down maybe it would be a good time to install adjustable lifters. It can be done with the engine in the car.
The original lifters get wells worn in them and the only way to set your valves is by piston travel.
Remove the crank, pulley, timing gear cover, lower inspection pan and generator mounting casting. The original lifters have holes in them to put pins to hold them up or use clothes pins. Line up the timing marks. Remove the two cap screws holding the cam bearing in and slide the cam shaft out. After counting your rags stuff them in back by the flywheels so you don't drop any lifters in that part of the pan, remove the pins or clips and let the lifters drop out.
The adjustable lifters don't have holes so install each one and put a clip on it. Unless you have engine pans installed, you should be able to reach up from underneath install the lifter and put a clip on it. Reinstall the cam making sure the timing marks are lined up(I take a photo to remind me that they are) and reassemble. You may have to shorten the valve stems.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jerry VanOoteghem - SE Michigan on Monday, September 12, 2016 - 01:49 pm:

Dennis,

I would encourage you to leave the valve guides alone for now. First, I can hardly believe you have 1/16" clearance in them right now. Second, that is not something that's so easily done correctly by an amateur. It seems simple and straightforward but there's much more to it than just running a reamer through the valve guides. Yes, as Frank states, you have to recut the seats too. The correct reamer isn't cheap and neither is a good seat cutter. (I don't mean to be demeaning or to insult you when I use the term amateur. I've been accused of being too blunt here in the past when trying give similar, well intended advice.) My best advice would be to leave this for a time when a formal rebuild is possible.

For now, I would clean everything up really well, lap the valves, making sure the valve seats make contact along their full circumference, and put things back together.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, September 12, 2016 - 06:14 pm:

Thank's for the input Jerry, I appreciate it, I did decide to just clean everything up, re lap these valves and put the new head gasket in for now and maybe this winter pull the engine out again and address the other issues as right now it seems like every time I try to address one issue, another pops up taking me down the rabbit hole a little further once again!!! I'm willing to learn and get my hands dirty, in fact I enjoy it, but there is no question that I have a tendency to "get in over my head" at times! LOL Thank's for all of the suggestions and advice! In the meantime I will look for a reamer and cutters locally and maybe someone that has the experience to show me how to do it this winter!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Monday, September 12, 2016 - 09:20 pm:

what is the best way to clean crusted carbon deposits?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Friday, September 16, 2016 - 10:16 pm:

update;, While I have the head off, I checked the gaps on the valves according to a previous post by Glen Chaffin and am now thinking that when I swapped out the old valves years ago, most likely screwed the settings up. Can anyone tell me what kind of symptoms the following settings could cause?
#1 .020,
#2 .026,
#3 .024,
#4 .020,
#5 .022,
#6 .026,
#7 .026,
#8 .026+
I don't remember what method I used to originally set the valves back then because I had someone helping me, but the car has run fairly decent until recently. I am now thinking that I should order some new valves and reset them as I don't have adjustable lifters.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 09:25 am:

It will run OK with those settings. Ideally you want the intakes around .015" and the exhausts a little more, maybe .018". More clearance is safer than less clearance. After you lap the valves the clearance will be a bit less.

You probably have an old, worn out camshaft, so it is not really critical what the settings are as long as they are not too tight and not crazy loose.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By dennis delano on Saturday, September 17, 2016 - 11:39 am:

Thank's Royce!


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