Misc Transmission/hogshead, tc questions

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Misc Transmission/hogshead, tc questions
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 12:59 pm:

First time changing bands on my '24 Roadster.
Thought I would post some pictures to get some suggestions, information, significant issues folks might see ...

After figuring out I had de-mountable dog ears, I pulled the bands via the inspection hole, and riveted up the new linings. I went to put them back in, an decided maybe the pedal cams needed to be replaced 'while I was in there', and ended up taking more and more apart ... then just pulled the hogshead. I was excited to remove the new exhaust manifold and exhaust packing nut I had JUST installed last week.. ;-)
I do have a few parts already on their way from Langs ... new transmission gaskets, clutch linkage, Low band adjusting bolt, O-rings for re-assymbly.

First photo is of low band adjusting bolt. I thought I read that if you had an earlier transmission and changed the bands out for de-mountables, then you would need to cut a piece out of the low band adjusting bolt. Has this been done here ? ... or broken off? Apparently, to get the thing out, I'll need to grind off the pin holding the cam to the bolt? (ditto on the outside?)
 Low Band Adj Bolt and Cam


Does the Ford script and '13' indicate it might be a pre-24 transmission? (or just hogshead?)
 Hogshead top


Next up is the Clutch yoke. See any issues here?
I have yet to mic the thickness:
Clutch Yoke

Apparently, I didn't get the memo on removing the magneto post before pulling the hogshead, in my haste. I suspect there should be some spring action between the lower pin and the shell it slides up into, to keep good contact with the solder cap on the top of the magneto ring?
Magneto Post

Clutch Area #1:
Clutch Area - 1


Clutch Area #2:
Clutch Area - 2

Drums (Yeah .. I know I need to rotate to see all of the surface(s):
Drums

Magneto Top:
Magneto Top

Overall:
Overall

I've drained the oil ... is it advisable to rinse the area down with cleaner/kerosene/Gunk, and flush with oil, before re-assembly?

Thanks in advance.

Dennis


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 01:15 pm:

In clutch area 1 I don't see any cotter pins in the high speed clutch adjusting screws. More later, I have an interruption


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 01:20 pm:

Good work to re-do the hogshead pedal supports and replace the low pedal shaft with new. While you are at that, replace the outboard supports for the brake and reverse pedals too :-)

Then cleaning out the sump and around the drums with a solvent like kerosene is a good idea too.

The rest of the trans and clutch release seem OK, but note the 3 clutch finger screws are missing the needed cotter pins!

That low pedal shaft has been 'cut' to use the demountable ear bands.

Best to cut the low pedal shaft outboard of the pedal support, as you will be using a new shaft, new support and new low speed cam on the shaft.




Cut away shaft, drill out rivet in pedal, and remove the stub left from cutting.


Re-rivet the low pedal to the new shaft.

Then re-install and using proper buck support, re-rivet the new low cam back on the shaft.




Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 01:31 pm:

As for dating the hogshead, most of those digits are just molding id, not really any dates.

For a later '24 calendar year, you can tell the Oct 1924 change for these hogsheads have the little ridge molded in to flip more oil to the bands.

Oct 1924 Service Bulletin


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 01:49 pm:

Dennis, Dan is giving you great advice. On looking more closely I see only one cotter pin missing. The way I've been today, I could have missed that in the text.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 02:16 pm:

yes ... there is only 1 cotter pin missing in the yoke finger adjusting screws. That being said .... there was a complementary adjusting screw that showed up in the strainer when I drained the oil! Well .. maybe not. I have to look at it again. I don't remember IT having a cotter pin hole. Hopefully, not from something ELSE!

The underside of my hogshead does not have the oil slinging addition .. so must be pre-late '24, then.

Here's a shot of the underside of yoke. Looks like there's a couple spots where something is rubbing against 1) the yoke frame, and 2) against the hogshead. Maybe too much play in some bushings?

Clutch Yoke Underside

Also, I went to turn the starter crank to rotate the drums, so I could see the rest of the surface(s) ... and was surprised to find the engine engaged to the rear end. I would have thought it would be in 'neutral', with nothing connected to the bands. So ... the clutch is 'engaged', when the yoke is out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 02:23 pm:

yes ... there is only 1 cotter pin missing in the yoke finger adjusting screws. That being said .... there was a complementary adjusting screw that showed up in the strainer when I drained the oil! Well .. maybe not. I have to look at it again. I don't remember IT having a cotter pin hole. Hopefully, not from something ELSE!

The underside of my hogshead does not have the oil slinging addition .. so must be pre-late '24, then.

Here's a shot of the underside of yoke. Looks like there's a couple spots where something is rubbing against 1) the yoke frame, and 2) against the hogshead. Maybe too much play in some bushings?

Clutch Yoke Underside

Also, I went to turn the starter crank to rotate the drums, so I could see the rest of the surface(s) ... and was surprised to find the engine engaged to the rear end. I would have thought it would be in 'neutral', with nothing connected to the bands. So ... the clutch is 'engaged', when the yoke is out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 02:31 pm:

yes ... there is only 1 cotter pin missing in the yoke finger adjusting screws. That being said .... there was a complementary adjusting screw that showed up in the strainer when I drained the oil! Well .. maybe not. I have to look at it again. I don't remember IT having a cotter pin hole. Hopefully, not from something ELSE!

The underside of my hogshead does not have the oil slinging addition .. so must be pre-late '24, then.

Here's a shot of the underside of yoke. Looks like there's a couple spots where something is rubbing against 1) the yoke frame, and 2) against the hogshead. Maybe too much play in some bushings?



Also, I went to turn the starter crank to rotate the drums, so I could see the rest of the surface(s) ... and was surprised to find the engine engaged to the rear end. I would have thought it would be in 'neutral', with nothing connected to the bands. So ... the clutch is 'engaged', when the yoke is out?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 02:38 pm:

It appears I'm getting my posts and pictures mixed up!

Dan .... I think I'm still confused as to the assembly of the new low speed adjust bolt. 1) ... I don't see any adjustment threads that would stick out the right side of the hogs head. I DO think I ordered the same one you have pictured, however .. as well as one with the threaded end for adjustment.

One way I first envisioned assembly from your photo of parts was:
New Low Sped Adjustment Components

But, that wouldn't match your photo. So ... does the cam in the photo get riveted to the right-most hole, next to the smaller diameter of the adjustment bolt, get slid into position, up against the new cam support on the inside of the hogshead, then the brake bit slid on, and a new hole drilled, to accommodate, get riveted in place, then cut the remainder of the bolt off on the outboard side of the brake pedal base? That would be quite a chunk of bolt to cut off.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 02:55 pm:

Ahh ... think I got it. This is the pedal bolt side only... and with the long hogshead support section in between ... it's probably the right size as is. The adjusting part is Langs part number: 3419B ?

I was thinking the bolt looked long enough to be a through-bolt... but wondered why there wasn't threads on one end. There are actually 2 parts, then.... coming in through the hogshead from both outboard directions?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 03:24 pm:

Yes, they clutch is engaged when the hogshead is off. You say an adjusting screw came out with the oil??? I need to read your post thougholy, but I get interruptions.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 03:44 pm:

Yes... a short screw came out with the oil. May be broken off. It appears to be the same size and pitch as the clutch finger adjusting screws, but without a hole... and shorter. Might be a set screw....



Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 03:48 pm:

Could you post a picture of the "adjusting screw" which came out when you drained the oil? It's hard to know just where it came from. Anything which fell out of either the engine or transmission could end up there.

Another thing, when you wash everything down, don't touch the magneto coils. The insulation gets very brittle with the years of use and could very easily be broken.

You need to replace the low gear cam which is bolted to the hogs head first, then put the pedal with new shaft through the hogs head and then place the notch which has the pin through the shaft. Note, before you tighten anything down permanently or place the gaskets, check the operation of the low band with the new shaft. I found that either the holes were drilled just a little off, or the cam and notch were cut just a little off because I could not get my pedal to come back enough to go into high gear when I replaced all those parts. I did a little filing on the notch on the back side to get the pedal back farther. Now everything works just fine. If you check this before you place the gaskets, you will save a set of gaskets.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 03:57 pm:

Wonder why Henry didn't opt for an inspection plate in the bottom of the transmission? Opted for strength and no leaks? :-) Boy... Wouldn't it have made band changing and dropped bit recovery a WHOLE lot easier?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 03:59 pm:

Norman....Guess I read your mind. Finally installed a photo resizing app on my phone, so not as much of a pain to post from the garage. :-)

Thanks for the cam tip!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 04:00 pm:

Jacked the rear axle up so the wheels would clear, and rotated the large ring gear. No visible cracks I the drums, at least!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dan Treace, North FL on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 05:25 pm:

Dennis

You got it. And the correct Adj. Screw for the demountable bands is the one with short narrow shank.

The earlier Adj. Screw has hollow shaft for the earlier longer Low Speed shaft to fit into it.

The two types:



You will want the lower one in the photo with the stubby end.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 06:12 pm:

Very good... I'd better check what I ordered last night! I think b I will get a magneto plug, as well.

Off to rise out the tyranny and hogshead!!
Thanks!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Kohnke Rebabbitting, Clare, Iowa on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 06:30 pm:

Pictures, "TEST"


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 06:33 pm:

Dennis, that looks like the disc drum set screw that came out the drain hole. Again, if this has been pointed out, forgive me.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:10 pm:

Jim... no... not addressed except for a n picture request. I'll see if I can find a picture of where it should be....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:13 pm:

So.... it n looks like the n ottoman half of the transmission she'll is 'one' with the bottom pan of the engine (Except for it's inspection plate, of course)? It would be grand if it could be dropped, but looks like the whole engine /Transmission would need to come out.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:25 pm:

Sorry ... cell phone typing again ...
"So ... it looks like the bottom half of transmission shell is 'one'"...............


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:26 pm:

Yep. All one piece. I hate to be negative, but, if that's the disc drum set screw or part of it.... Was this running /driving? Mag work? Might be time to start new thread.....


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:33 pm:

Sorry ... cell phone typing again ...
"So ... it looks like the bottom half of transmission shell is 'one'"...............


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:37 pm:

Yes ... was running fine ... until low band went out a couple years ago. I finally got around to pulling the bands and found that low band and brake were totally shot. It DID stop running on mag that same year ... I do not remember if it happened at the same time as the apparent low band issue. The set screw I found on Langs, appears to be a bolt .. not a slot-head short threaded rod. Any way to tell without a pull? I'm sure I can pull the bottom pan ... can I get to the disk drum without pulling the engine?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:40 pm:

It's about the right length to be a clutch yoke finger adjusting bolt ... if it broke at the cotter key hole. The visible (very shallow) 'slot' in the middle does appear square, however .. not round, like I might expect for a cotter pin hole. If someone replaced one .. that might account for the missing cotter pin in one of those fingers.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:55 pm:

Get a pic of p/n 3334.You can't get to clutch drum without tear-down.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:57 pm:

That piece, wherever it came from likely took out the Mag. Lucky it must have gotten down in drain


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 08:18 pm:

If it is the bolt which holds the disk drum, you will need to pull the engine and transmission as a unit and then remove the driven plate and the disks to get to the drum. However, I don't know how that bolt could get out and into the bottom of the transmission if it came out after the transmission was installed in the car. Unfortunately, anything can fall into the transmission when the inspection plate or hogs head is off, so it might be something else. The disk drum bolt should have a square head with a hole drilled through it. After the bolt is installed a safety wire is threaded through and twisted to keep it in place.

At this point you can either fix the hogs head and replace the band lining and leave things as is, or pull everything out. If you do pull it out, you need to go through everything in the engine and transmission and repair or replace everything which is broken or worn. While you have things apart, you can then decide whether or not you want to run a magneto. If you do, you should replace the coil ring with a rewound one and check all the magnets for cracks and recharge. The brass screws which hold the magnets keepers to the flywheel should also be replaced with new ones. If you decide not to use the magneto, remove the magnets and replace with oil slingers. (I personally prefer the magneto)

I would suggest that you get the books Engine, Transmission, and Electrical system from the club and read them. They give excellent step by step instructions on how to rebuild all these parts.

I would also suggest that you buy another running Model T to drive on tours while yours is apart, because unless you have the work done professionly it will take quite a while to do the work. Unless you are an accomplished machinist and have the tools, I would also suggest that you get any cylinder boring or crankshaft turning done by a machine shop. Ask the local members for recommendations, because some Model T work is different from modern cars. Also find someone in your area who can pour and fit the bearings.

I know it takes time and costs a lot to rebuilt things properly, but it will save time and money in the future if you do it right the first time. It will also make your car safer, more dependable, and more enjoyable.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 08:59 pm:

Norm, it does seem unlikely that the disc drum set screw could get out. Between the drum 'webs'maybe? This is the conundrum of repair.Where to stop?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 09:25 pm:

Yeah... 3334 doesn't really look like it.... that part (at least Langs itteration)... steps to a smaller diameter, that's unthreaded, and would habel round holes for security wire/cotternpin. Pine has a very rapid taper to a blunt point, and possibly a scredriver slot at the other end. It's Shorter than the clutch fingers.

I'll need to g etc my wife or someone to crank her over slowly, so I can get a good look at all the windings, for damage.

It could have been in there a while, but I do change the oil twice yearly. Not to say it hasn't been lodged somewhere for a while!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 09:39 pm:

I am inclined to b put b it back together... after rebuilding the hogshead, and linkage, certainly, and closely inspecting what I can see from above. I really do want to pull the pan and see how things are there, as well. Certainly, the inspection plate.

I've just joined 3 clubs, loxally, but really haven't met anyone yet! Hopefully, at the OCF next weekend. I'm local to that area. I was hoping to drive it there, but not hell bent on throwing things together for just that self-imposed goal, either.



I don't mind doing what I can, within my means,(that's why I decided to pull the hogshead off) but boring and blabiting(sp) are out of my league, and only have normal tools and wrenches. The most exotic tool I have is a band wrench, and several Ford 'flat' adjustable wrenches. :-) I'd see if I can muster some help from the club to get the engine pulled .. and or drive it to a local to have the heavy work done. My time would be better spent doing some extra work to afford to have it done properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 09:41 pm:

I did just get the transmission book, and have the Ford service manual. I have a couple wiring diagrams (redid that a few years ago). Engine book... not yet!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 09:43 pm:

Dennis, i agree with you that its not a disc drum bolt, its probably just a broken finger screw that could have been in there for ages before finally being deposited out the drain. If you had a broken drum bolt you would definitely feel its effects, as another forum member here recently had his loosen up causing lots of problems with his trans functioning properly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 10:11 pm:

Whew... hope so! I'd love to tear down and re-doing bushings, etc, .... but hopefully, the drums will last a bit. Lots of expensive -to- replace stuff in there!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 10:26 pm:

If it were mine, i would fix all the problems that you have with the hogshead, replace the bands and the mag post, and see how she runs and drives, then take it from there. If you're still not happy with the way it performs, than you can dive deep into the guts, and like you alluded to...a big money pit. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 10:33 pm:

John... yes.... I believe that's what I'm going to do.... then, maybe see if a club member or two might take it for a spin, and see what they would suggest , for a future priority list.

There is likely someone in the area (Detroit) that is a good 'go to' person for real work.

Thanks to all!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Norman T. Kling on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:05 pm:

I wonder if that bolt might be part of the bolt which holds the bendix spring on the starter? If it comes loose it can fall into the hogs head.
Norm


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dennis Hoshield on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:35 pm:

Could have been an old one, as both were in place when I pulled the starter.


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