Intake cold and condensated

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Model T Ford Forum: Forum 2016: Intake cold and condensated
Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:41 pm:

What gets an intake manifold cold and condensated? Air leaks? Carb rebuild issues?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:44 pm:

Rebuilt the carb, new needle, seat, bored out passages and rep lugged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Tim Wrenn-Monroeville OH on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:44 pm:

I'm not really sure but I do know certain levels of dew point makes a difference & they all seem to do it if there isn't a hot air pipe attached to the carb.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:46 pm:

Joe, if you're not running a hot air pipe on you carb it will frost in some instances. Nothing to worry about though.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:46 pm:

Hot air pipe is attached


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:49 pm:

Hmmm, well that is odd then.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:49 pm:

Kingston carburetor?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:50 pm:

Don't worry about it. Normal.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:52 pm:

Just put it back together and will not run smooth. Adjustment on carb has very little effect. Was using glands and rings on intake and exhaust but went to 3 port gasket and gland rings, terrible exhaust leaks now. N very had cold condensating issue on intake before.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 07:53 pm:

Holley NH


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 09:11 pm:

My experience with L-2 and L-4 Kingstons is they do this. But, just sounds like you need to re-gasket again. As Royce and others say a certain amount of this happens on most T's. But, as usual, not all. Some you can run in a wet snowstorm and not frost up -without a hot air pipe.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 09:19 pm:

Perhaps the choke is partially closed, check to make sure that the choke plate is fully open when you think you have the choke open. Verify that the coil spring around the choke shaft is present and is strong enough to open the choke.

If you do find that you have been running with the choke partially closed and fix the problem, you may have to re-adjust your mixture needle for best running with the new, fully open choke setting.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 09:46 pm:

Just rebuilt the entire carb, new choke spring, very strong, all new seat gaskets. Not happy with intake and manifold now but just changed them.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 10:17 pm:

To answer your original question consider the purpose of the carburetor. It is not only intended to deliver the right proportion of fuel and air, but in addition it atomizes the fuel to turn as much of the liquid fuel to vapor as possible. Liquid gasoline doesn't burn, but the vapor (gaseous state) does. That helps to understand why a choke is necessary when starting a cold engine. It takes extra fuel when temperatures are low to yield enough vapor for the engine to start.

When the fuel changes state from liquid to vapor (inside the carburetor venturi) it absorbs a great deal of heat. The same thing happens in your air conditioning system to provide cool air. The cool air that blows into the area occupied by humans has just passed over the "evaporator" in the system where heat energy present in the air is absorbed by the refrigerant that is changing states from a liquid to a gas on the insides of the evaporator.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 10:17 pm:

New water hoses, new head gasket and head bolts, new intake and exhaust gaskets, valves timed, manifolds checked for warp, all straight, rebuilt carb, every time it runs worse. I can not figure out what is going on. Ran perfect at the beginning of the season. Timing still seems good, plenty of spark on all four cylinders. Maybe my Anderson is warped??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 10:23 pm:

I understand carbs, it is like I'm trying to run lpg and Iam not.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Gary Blake, Kansas City on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 11:20 pm:

I'm glad you understand "carbs". The point is, the condensation you asked about is unrelated to your running problem.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 11:30 pm:

It is and it isn't, in 80 degree weather with a hot air tube and gasoline I don't ever remember a cold condensated manifold.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 11:41 pm:

Joe, this might be a long shot, but is it possible you got a bad batch of Ethanol/gas on the last gas up? How long since the beginning of the season have you run it?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 11:43 pm:

Is this a bad vacuum leak caused by distorted manifolds? With the 8 piece set, the exhaust leaks are bad, it is not compatible with the gland rings, maybe they are undersized. Is there a good gasket set for warped manifolds?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Sunday, September 04, 2016 - 11:52 pm:

John, it has been drained and redrained, tanks cleaned, I have other cars running just fine, it may well be the gas but I think it did something, this one backfired (muffler explosion) and has not run right since. All my gas is either mixed with sea foam or marvel mystery oil and I am like MMO better because gas seems very dry to me and I don't think the valves are lubricating well.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:17 am:

Hmmmmm...... Muffler explosion. Wonder if something in the muffler/baffles is causing excessive back pressure?Carboned up?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:22 am:

Joe, do you know what you are running for a timing gear? Is it possible you have an older fiber gear that may have been damaged due to the backfire, throwing your timing off?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:25 am:

I do not know, car was restored in the 90s.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:28 am:

Jim, muffler is really clean, have pounded it back together twice with a dolly.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:33 am:

I did not see any issues with the timing when I had the head off and checked all the valves. Timing gear sounds good when running.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:36 am:

If you shine a flashlight into the oil filler hole on the front of the engine, you can usually get a pretty good idea of what you have. I would have someone turn the engine over as you examine if the teeth are all still there and not damaged.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:43 am:

Internal passages on the carb were plugged, before rebuilding the carb operated ok when the needle was open about 2 turns but this would cause the muffler explosion?? After rebuilding the needle adjustment doesn't seem to matter, will not run smoothly. I am leaning towards a vacuum problem caused by the manifold seal and possibly carb wear??


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 12:49 am:

John have you heard of timing issues with the Anderson Timer. I have heard those contact arms inside move due to heat on the insulated posts and throw it off a few degrees on 1 or 2 plugs. Multiple problems are usually the cause. I will check my gear though, thank you for that point.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Floyd Voie - Chehalis, Washington on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:09 am:

Joe, If you haven't tested the intake manifold to block seal spray a little wd40 around the port area while running and see if the engine rpm changes. The depth on some glands were too long holding the manifold from the block. This is a quick, easy and cheap test that may help or at least you'll be able to cross it off your list.
Good Luck


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By John Noonan - Norton, MA. on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:27 am:

Joe, I don't run an Anderson so unfortunately i can't help you there. Lots of things can make a T act up, its just the nature of the beast. But fortunately for you, some of the smartest T people reside right here. I'm just throwing out some thoughts about your troubles, but rest assured, somebody here will figure it out...Just watch. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Dave Dufault on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 08:06 am:

Joe,
Re: your Anderson Timer question and possible adjustment, have you seen this thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/599638/669349.html?1472234052

Good Luck.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 09:22 am:

You likely have either leaking glands. Likely one of them fumbled during installation. Easy to do.

Regarding the hot air pipe here is what Ford said about it:




Ford was giving excellent advice in this case, because the hot air pipe hurts horsepower under most conditions. The guys in Oklahoma ran a Dyno test to see just exactly how much power was lost by installing the heat pipe. Here's what they found:



The amount of lost horsepower is about 3 1/2 - you can simulate the difference by removing a spark plug wire for those guys like me who never use one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 09:35 am:

Hell, Royce, you are in dry, hot Texas. I would not use a hot air pipe there either. Jim, time to try another carburetor and new gaskets. .Something weird going on inside of that one.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Royce in Dallas TX on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 10:50 am:

Jim,

Over the past twenty years I have lived in California, Kentucky, Virginia, and Arizona. I found that in any of those places, at any temperature, the T's ran better simply by removing the hot air pipe.

I ran in the Christmas parade every year at Bethel, Ohio for several years with the Nokin T club. Temperatures were generally between 0 degrees and 20 degrees, sometimes snowing. I used the hot air pipe one year, not on other years. The T runs better without an air pipe in any case.

We often had rain while on tours in KY / Cincinnati / Virginia areas, and temperatures from freezing up to mid 80s. Again no hot air pipe.

Try it, you'll see.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Erik Barrett in Auburn Ca. on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 10:57 am:

I'm with Royce on this one. The purpose of the hot air pipe was to help vaporize the low grade gas used in those days. It is entirely unnecessary with modern fuel. Same goes for the vaporizer carburetor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Bill Harper - Keene, NH on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:07 pm:

No hot air pipe. Temp in the upper thirties and no knowledge of the relative humidity, but not bone dry. Engine ran lousey.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:31 pm:

Royce and Erik-as I stated at 9:11 last night, some run well without a hot air pipe under any conditions.Others do what Bills does. I have no explanation for it. All T's have their own personalities.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:34 pm:

I have been running without a hot air pipe and with an air cleaner from a vintage Clinton tractor all summer here in the St. Louis area and have condensation (but no ice) on the carb body after every drive.

Personally, I plan to remove the air cleaner and re-install the hot air pipe in the late fall and leave it on over the winter. The air cleaner will go back on in the spring. :-)


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Phillip Maurici on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 01:48 pm:

Air flowing through a carburetor drops the temperature about 15 degs. This is due to expansion when it enters the manifold. This drop in temp. cools the air around the surface of the manifold to the dew point. If conditions are right it can also freeze. This happens in airplanes. That is why airplanes have carb. heat.
It is nothing to be concerned about in a car. It can happen even with a hot air pipe. Through the years it has been found that cool fuel is more dense and make more power than hot fuel.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 03:03 pm:

Long overdue for the shotgun approach. I wish, Joe, you were down here in my neck of the woods. We'd get together at one of the guys places, preferably Pete Snep's(you lurkin', Pete?) And start changing carbs, manifolds, timers, steering wheel nuts, whatever it takes to isolate this. You will have to bring the beer. For me, I'll have Rhinelander, Shorty's.My point is there comes a point to just start trying different parts. Hope somebody in your area has extra stuff and can help you. I'd any of us in my crew were around we'd have a good time doing this.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Harold Schwendeman - Sumner,WA on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 03:25 pm:

Joe R. - You and several others mentioned the "glands" in conjunction with manifold installation, and unless I missed it in this thread, there is something else that should be considered:

During the life of an 80 or 90+ year old engine block, its entirely possible that during the life of that engine, someone might have felt the need to mill or otherwise restore the "flatness" of the factory milled surface of the block where the manifolds mount on the the block, and, even more likely, it is not unusual to pick up a manifold that has been milled or otherwise "re-surfaced" in some way to restore the flatness of the mating surface. In both of these "possible" cases, such milling or whatever, will reduce the factory designed recess that was originally designed and machined into block & manifold to provide the proper space for the glands. This would of course necessitate grinding down and hand-fitting a replacement gland (or glands) to fit the possibly narrowed "recess" where the glands fit. In other words, it is possible that one or more of the glands could be preventing the manifold from fitting up against the block (and compressing the gasket) as Ford engineers intended. Just a thought, as it DOES happen! FWIW,....harold


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 04:45 pm:

Lock down nut was holding the needle 1 1/2 turns from seating, running very rich and too much air, that would be my guess right now for the condensation, cold and poor running. It felt like it had seated but the blowing test proved different. Will try it again when the new intake/ exhaust gaskets arrive. Thank you for the many ideas, will keep you posted.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 04:47 pm:

My cars have always run well with the air tube, may try with just an air filter in the summer and check HP. Again thanks


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 04:50 pm:

Jim, where is Deedsville, IN, I'll load the cooler?


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Mark Strange - Hillsboro, MO on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 05:15 pm:

I can confirm more power with the air pipe removed and an air filter installed. Here is my earlier air filter thread:

http://www.mtfca.com/discus/messages/257047/314773.html?1349210560


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 05:52 pm:

Joe---that is the ...AHAAAAH!!!...moment!! Have had same damn thing happen. If the needle feels seated,perception is reality!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 07:13 pm:

Needle open 1 turn, perfect fuel mixture, down the road about 35 mph with loads of power and no backfire, exhaust and intake seated on glands, no intake leaks, maybe a minor exhaust leak but will retighten when engine cools. Thanks for the ideas guys. You think this stuff would last 93 years!!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 09:28 pm:

Beautiful!


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Jim Eviston on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 09:30 pm:

And, as I said, something weird was going on inside that carburetor.


Top of pagePrevious messageNext messageBottom of page Link to this message  By Joe Reid on Monday, September 05, 2016 - 09:59 pm:

I do not doubt that a intake can condensate and be cold, mine never have, they are usually room temperature. Obvious sign of a problem I guess.


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